Stand Against Suffering

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retrofuturist
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
pink_trike wrote:Exactly. It's that simple. Well said.
If there was conclusive evidence that the Trump administrations policies were rooted in "the unwholesome", then it would indeed be that simple.

However, there is no such evidence about the cetanas underpinning such policies, nor even any cohesive argument put forth that such policies will objectively lead to suffering. All we are presented with in the "Stand Against Suffering" are disgrunted leftists with a different ideological world-view, rooted in moral relativism, who are unhappy that the President of the United States sees the world differently than they do. After eight years of moral relativism under Barack Obama they seem to be suffering due to having trouble accepting a president who ascribes to moral absolutism once more... and I'm not sure that actively propagating resistance to that reality is going to help erode that dukkha either. Some people seem determined to mentally inflict wounds upon themselves for the next eight years... and what can be done for their suffering? Are these calls to join the political frontline a salve for their self-inflicted emotional torment?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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pink_trike
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by pink_trike »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
pink_trike wrote:Exactly. It's that simple. Well said.
Some people seem determined to mentally inflict wounds upon themselves for the next eight years...
There's all kinds of people, aren't there (even your post could be read as an expression of mentally inflicted wounds). :) However, quite a lot of us are determined to:
... remember that peacefulness does not mean passiveness and nonattachment does not mean nonengagement.


... with an understanding that compassion is inseparable from action.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
pink_trike wrote:There's all kinds of people, aren't there (even your post could be read as an expression of mentally inflicted wounds). :)
Yes, and indeed it would be "mentally inflicted wounds" if I was suffering because of viewing things through the lens of akusala and kusala cetana.

Whether or not we try to delegate responsibility for our mindstates to others, we cannot delegate accountability for our own mindstates.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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mikenz66
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Not that I have any objection to people discussing politics, but I'm not sure what the point is of discussing it here unless the tagline is taken seriously:
The best place for the discussion of current events and politics. A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
Maybe that's just because you don't understand how people's views on such matters are influenced by the Dhamma?
...
Evidently.

You seem to put a lot of effort into flogging some progressive straw men, which I don't find particularly convincing.

Rather than this talk about mindstates, it would be more interesting to see some serious application of the the Dhamma (which does, in part, address societies and governments, and does seem reasonably absolute) to specific actions and policies of the new administration. That's the intent I read into the Letter (which I agree could have been expressed better).

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by pink_trike »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
pink_trike wrote:Exactly. It's that simple. Well said.
All we are presented with in the "Stand Against Suffering" are disgrunted leftists with a different ideological world-view, rooted in moral relativism, who are unhappy that the President of the United States sees the world differently than they do.
Really? That's all you see? Seen through a certain lens then, it appears that all those who object to the "Stand Against Suffering" are disgruntled rightists (or closeted rightists) with a different ideological worldview rooted in moral absolutism, who are unhappy that there are people with a different worldview than the President of the United States is attempting to impose on us.

See how that works? :rolleye:

Check your lens ... :)
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Rather than this talk about mindstates, it would be more interesting to see some serious application of the Dhamma
:?

What application of the Dhamma is there other than in cetana?

Your desire to cleave the two apart belies what the Buddha taught of the Dhamma, and it belies your earlier quotes about "the wholesome" and "the unwholesome".

As I stepped out, my view of the world comes from my view of the Dhamma. I do not see any benefit in cleaving the two.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Pink_Trike,
Really? That's all you see?
I see the origination of dukkha, I see its causes, and I see a letter that serves only to inflame those causes in its target audience rather than doing what Buddhist teachers would traditionally have done in the past, which is, to help people transcend those causes of dukkha.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Rather than this talk about mindstates, it would be more interesting to see some serious application of the Dhamma

What application of the Dhamma is there other than in cetana?
I gave some sutta quotes above that I think are relevant.

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by pink_trike »

retrofuturist wrote:
... my view of the world comes from my view of the Dhamma.
You seem to spend a lot of time holding forth about how disgruntled leftists / "social justice warriors" (ridiculing and belittling terms) are a screwed up menace to society who have it all wrong (which implies that you have it all right). What part of your view of Dhamma does this ongoing politicizing, political parsing, and diminishing of others flow from? How is questioning the motives of these highly trained, compassionate, experienced teachers, and divisively labeling them as "disgruntled leftists" with petty adhammic grievances, reflective of your view of dhamma? How is this skillful, according to your view of dhamma? How is it respectful of their commitment (in some cases longer than you've been alive) to teaching people about the cessation of suffering?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I gave some sutta quotes above that I think are relevant.
Good suttas they are too...

The first supports fair and reasonable distribution of income and wealth, divorced of state-intervention.
The second supports border protection, law and order and combating terrorism.
The thirds supports reduction in excessive taxes and regulations, as well as investments in infrastructure.

...all of which are Trump policies which are being resisted in the name of resistance!

:rofl:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Pink_Trike,
pink_trike wrote:You seem to spend a lot of time holding forth about how disgruntled leftists / "social justice warriors" (ridiculing and belittling terms) are a screwed up menace to society who have it all wrong (which implies that you have it all right). What part of your view of Dhamma does this ongoing politicizing, political parsing, and diminishing of others flow from? How is questioning the motives of these highly trained, compassionate, experienced teachers, and divisively labeling them as "disgruntled leftists" with petty adhammic grievances, reflective of your view of dhamma? How is this skillful, according to your view of dhamma? How is it respectful of their commitment (in some cases longer than you've been alive) to teaching people about the cessation of suffering?
DN 15 wrote:It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.
Generations were this way 2600 years ago as well... the difference is, that the Buddha tried to teach them the way out of their self-inflicted suffering. If people prioritise political ideologies over the Dhamma, then that is their choice - it is not for me to stop them. However, I need not be led by them, nor silenced for disagreeing with their chosen path and daring to point out alternatives that exist other than further entanglement...

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I gave some sutta quotes above that I think are relevant.
Good suttas they are too...

The first supports fair and reasonable distribution of income and wealth, divorced of state-intervention.
The second supports border protection, law and order.
The thirds supports reduction in excessive taxes and regulations.

...all of which are Trump policies which are being resisted in the name of resistance!

:rofl:
I guess everyone has their own interpretation... The third is not just about reducing excessive taxes:
Now there is one method to adopt to put a thorough end to this disorder. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to keeping cattle and the farm, to them let his majesty the king give food and seed-corn. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to trade, to them let his majesty the king give capital. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to government service, to them let his majesty the king give wages and food.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 22#p421311
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by pink_trike »

retrofuturist wrote:

If people prioritise political ideologies over the Dhamma, then that is their choice - it is not for me to stop them.
My point was that it is _you_ that are doing this ... it is you who politicize and politically parse ... to the point of apparently needing to diminish ("disgruntled leftists" is politicizing and provoking) and question the motives of quite a number of valued effective teachers. And my question is what part of your view of dhamma supports doing this?
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Pink_Trike,
pink_trike wrote:My point was that it is _you_ that are doing this ... it is you who politicize and politically parse ... to the point of apparently needing to diminish and question the motives of quite a number of valued effective teachers.
I'm not questioning their motives at all. Moral relativism has plagued Buddhism ever since it sprung forth under the rationalisation of akusala cetana as "skilful means". I have no doubt they believe in what they're saying. I do question how "effective" it is for teachers to encourage people to react in such a way, in instances where the world does not pander to their preferences... I find that very difficult to reconcile with the Buddha's teaching.
pink_trike wrote:And my question is what part of your view of dhamma supports doing this?
The part that says the moral quality of action is intrinsically embedded within the action itself, not in moral relativism.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:The third is not just about reducing excessive taxes and regulations:
Now there is one method to adopt to put a thorough end to this disorder. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to keeping cattle and the farm, to them let his majesty the king give food and seed-corn. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to trade, to them let his majesty the king give capital. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to government service, to them let his majesty the king give wages and food.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 22#p421311
Correct... it also supports Trump's infrastructure plans as well!

:twothumbsup:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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