Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
SarathW
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Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by SarathW »

Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

One of the Sri Lankan monks said the above.
For instance, if someone asks for help from us, not providing that help arise the anger of another person.
Is it bad for Kamma on the person who refuses the help?
Another example could be, behaving in this forum so as to increase the anger of another member.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
JohnK
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by JohnK »

Hmm, how to reply w/o contradicting a monk?
Certainly, the anger that arises in someone based on an action of yours COULD be because you intentionally took something from them that was not given, spoke harshly to them, etc. But their anger does not determine the nature of your kamma. Someone could be angry with you for not speaking harshly to someone else who they thought "deserved" it. If you intentionally do something in order to make someone angry, that certainly seems unwholesome.
If you inadvertently/unintentionally makes someone angry, it could be worth considering if perhaps you did do something unwholesome.
I suspect the monk, in the context of when it was said, meant something more nuanced than how it is being re-expressed here.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
SteRo
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by SteRo »

SarathW wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:20 pm Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?
Not generally. There might be circumstances when anger arises in another even if one looks at them with a friendly smile.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Inedible
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by Inedible »

I know we aren't Christians, but try not to do anything to other people if you wouldn't want them to do it to you. Seriously, asking if you can get away with hurting other people on purpose?
The2nd
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by The2nd »

SarathW wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:20 pm Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

One of the Sri Lankan monks said the above.
For instance, if someone asks for help from us, not providing that help arise the anger of another person.
Is it bad for Kamma on the person who refuses the help?
Another example could be, behaving in this forum so as to increase the anger of another member.
:thinking:
It wouldnt be bad for you, if you did not intend to cause anger.
It would be bad for you, if you intend to cause anger in another, even if the other doesnt get angry.

You are responsible for your own intentional actions.
coconut
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by coconut »

SarathW wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:20 pm Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

One of the Sri Lankan monks said the above.
For instance, if someone asks for help from us, not providing that help arise the anger of another person.
Is it bad for Kamma on the person who refuses the help?
Another example could be, behaving in this forum so as to increase the anger of another member.
:thinking:
If your intention is to harm or annoy other people, then yes, it is bad kamma, regardless of whether or not that person gets annoyed or angered. The fact remains that the bad karma was created upon the arising of the unwholesome intention, which arises as a result of improper/unwise attention, which arises as a result of wrong view.

Refusing to help someone is not an intention to annoy or anger though. There are many puthujannas who are incapable of attaining right view, and are forever hopeless, these people are best dealt with by being permanently ignored and removed from the community, just like the Buddha threw a fake monk out of the assembly, who foolishly thought the Buddha wouldn't detect him.

The Buddha calls this "killing them":
"If a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi."

"But it's not proper for our Blessed One to take life! And yet the Blessed One just said, 'I kill him, Kesi.'"

"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata doesn't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing."
Of course the evil person will try to get attention as much as possible, but that will simply accelerate their own demise, and upon death they will be reborn in hell and suffer for a long time as a result, which is what happened to Maha Moggallana when he was a Mara in a past life.
coconut
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by coconut »

Inedible wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:09 am I know we aren't Christians, but try not to do anything to other people if you wouldn't want them to do it to you. Seriously, asking if you can get away with hurting other people on purpose?
Christians?

“And what is the explanation of the Dhamma that’s relevant to oneself?

It’s when a noble disciple reflects: ‘I want to live and don’t want to die; I want to be happy and recoil from pain. Since this is so, if someone were to take my life, I wouldn’t like that. But others also want to live and don’t want to die; they want to be happy and recoil from pain. So if I were to take the life of someone else, they wouldn’t like that either. The thing that is disliked by me is also disliked by others. Since I dislike this thing, how can I inflict it on someone else?’ Reflecting in this way, they give up killing living creatures themselves. And they encourage others to give up killing living creatures, praising the giving up of killing living creatures. So their bodily behavior is purified in three points.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘If someone were to steal from me, I wouldn’t like that. But if I were to steal from someone else, they wouldn’t like that either. The thing that is disliked by me is also disliked by others. Since I dislike this thing, how can I inflict it on someone else?’ Reflecting in this way, they give up stealing themselves. And they encourage others to give up stealing, praising the giving up of stealing. So their bodily behavior is purified in three points.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘If someone were to have sexual relations with my wives, I wouldn’t like it. But if I were to have sexual relations with someone else’s wives, he wouldn’t like that either. The thing that is disliked by me is also disliked by others. Since I dislike this thing, how can I inflict it on others?’ Reflecting in this way, they give up sexual misconduct themselves. And they encourage others to give up sexual misconduct, praising the giving up of sexual misconduct. So their bodily behavior is purified in three points.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘If someone were to distort my meaning by lying, I wouldn’t like it. But if I were to distort someone else’s meaning by lying, they wouldn’t like it either. The thing that is disliked by me is also disliked by someone else. Since I dislike this thing, how can I inflict it on others?’ Reflecting in this way, they give up lying themselves. And they encourage others to give up lying, praising the giving up of lying. So their verbal behavior is purified in three points.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘If someone were to break me up from my friends by divisive speech, I wouldn’t like it. But if I were to break someone else from their friends by divisive speech, they wouldn’t like it either. …’ So their verbal behavior is purified in three points.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘If someone were to attack me with harsh speech, I wouldn’t like it. But if I were to attack someone else with harsh speech, they wouldn’t like it either. …’ So their verbal behavior is purified in three points.

Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects: ‘If someone were to annoy me by talking silliness and nonsense, I wouldn’t like it. But if I were to annoy someone else by talking silliness and nonsense, they wouldn’t like it either.’ The thing that is disliked by me is also disliked by another. Since I dislike this thing, how can I inflict it on another?’ Reflecting in this way, they give up talking nonsense themselves. And they encourage others to give up talking nonsense, praising the giving up of talking nonsense. So their verbal behavior is purified in three points.

And they have experiential confidence in the Buddha … the teaching … the Saṅgha … And they have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion. When a noble disciple has these seven good qualities and these four desirable states they may, if they wish, declare of themselves: ‘I’ve finished with rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. I’ve finished with all places of loss, bad places, the underworld. I am a stream-enterer! I’m not liable to be reborn in the underworld, and am bound for awakening.’”
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.7/en/sujato


and

There are, bhikkhus, these five gifts, great gifts, primal, of long standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated and never before adulterated, which are not being adulterated and will not be adulterated, not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins. What five?

6(4) “Here, a noble disciple, having abandoned the destruction of life, abstains from the destruction of life. By abstaining from the destruction of life, the noble disciple gives to an immeasurable number of beings freedom from fear, enmity, and affliction. He himself in turn enjoys immeasurable freedom from fear, enmity, and affliction. This is the first gift, a great gift, primal, of long standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated and never before adulterated, which is not being adulterated and will not be adulterated, not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins. This is the fourth stream of merit … that leads to what is wished for, desired, and agreeable, to one’s welfare and happiness.

7(5)–(8) “Again, a noble disciple, having abandoned the taking of what is not given, abstains from taking what is not given … abstains from sexual misconduct … abstains from false speech … abstains from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness. By abstaining from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness, the noble disciple gives to an immeasurable number of beings freedom from fear, enmity, and affliction. He himself in turn enjoys immeasurable freedom from fear, enmity, and affliction. This is the fifth gift, a great gift, primal, of long standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated and never before adulterated, which is not being adulterated and will not be adulterated, not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins. This is the eighth stream of merit an.iv.247 … that leads to what is wished for, desired, and agreeable, to one’s welfare and happiness.
This is ancient and much older than Christianity.
Inedible
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by Inedible »

There is a certain value in being able to answer a question in two or three sentences. It is easier to remember when the time comes to apply it.
JohnK
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by JohnK »

coconut wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:52 pm ...There are many puthujannas who are incapable of attaining right view, and are forever hopeless, these people are best dealt with by being permanently ignored and removed from the community...
Ouch!
(especially in the family life and relationships subforum)
Aside: Are many of us in a position to know who is "forever hopeless?"
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
coconut
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by coconut »

JohnK wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:27 pm
coconut wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:52 pm ...There are many puthujannas who are incapable of attaining right view, and are forever hopeless, these people are best dealt with by being permanently ignored and removed from the community...
Ouch!
(especially in the family life and relationships subforum)
Aside: Are many of us in a position to know who is "forever hopeless?"
Nope, and even more of a reason to avoid people. The Buddha at least could read people's minds, we can't. If he can't convert these people into Right View, it would be preposterous for us to assume we could. And as for family, I have family members who don't care about Buddhism, so I don't discuss it with them, simple.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

JohnK wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:27 pm
coconut wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:52 pm ...There are many puthujannas who are incapable of attaining right view, and are forever hopeless, these people are best dealt with by being permanently ignored and removed from the community...
Ouch!
(especially in the family life and relationships subforum)
Aside: Are many of us in a position to know who is "forever hopeless?"
Every person has some fertile ground in them for the right seed. And for the wrong seed, too.
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BlackMagic
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by BlackMagic »

SteRo wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:00 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:20 pm Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?
Not generally. There might be circumstances when anger arises in another even if one looks at them with a friendly smile.
Pain body is a strange concept. First heard of such a thing as a hearer while sitting two to three years ago.

However you are correct the posture of the face while sitting and someone crosses the visual yoke as a smile smile can irritate people... One has to remember how light operates and what a light being emanates when it penetrates to the very depth or core of another being.

So if you are sitting there beaming and they cross into your light and it strikes their inner reflection or mirror; anger arises because they haven't or don't know how to polish it as the old adage goes... even if you cannot see their face clearly at all; and wonder how they saw you smiling. To them you are in their face and in direct experience you are looking completely beyond them; in what astronomy calls red and blue shift going completely around a planet to meet on the other side of it.

Such is the power of what gets termed "enlightenment" some however think of it as the sound ah ha; when that is a grasping at some piece one thought was missing...

So such a being has yet to study: emptiness is form and form is none other than emptiness ...as a koan or at least penetrate it fully.

If you told a fully enlightened zen master to empty their cup they'd die right on the cushion directly in front of you... and yet they never actually "left" it.
What has happened; Is that which has yet to come. What will be ...Already is.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by Spiny Norman »

BlackMagic wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:13 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:00 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:20 pm Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?
Not generally. There might be circumstances when anger arises in another even if one looks at them with a friendly smile.
Pain body is a strange concept. First heard of such a thing as a hearer while sitting two to three years ago.

However you are correct the posture of the face while sitting and someone crosses the visual yoke as a smile smile can irritate people... One has to remember how light operates and what a light being emanates when it penetrates to the very depth or core of another being.

So if you are sitting there beaming and they cross into your light and it strikes their inner reflection or mirror; anger arises because they haven't or don't know how to polish it as the old adage goes... even if you cannot see their face clearly at all; and wonder how they saw you smiling. To them you are in their face and in direct experience you are looking completely beyond them; in what astronomy calls red and blue shift going completely around a planet to meet on the other side of it.

Such is the power of what gets termed "enlightenment" some however think of it as the sound ah ha; when that is a grasping at some piece one thought was missing...

So such a being has yet to study: emptiness is form and form is none other than emptiness ...as a koan or at least penetrate it fully.

If you told a fully enlightened zen master to empty their cup they'd die right on the cushion directly in front of you... and yet they never actually "left" it.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
jc1990
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Re: Is it a bad Kamma to behave in a way that arise anger in another person?

Post by jc1990 »

it's not bad kamma if the other person gets angry if you have not done wrong.

but if someone ask for help and you don't give help, it it bad kamma, provided you can help, if you can't help then it is not bad kamma.
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