Christmas

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Christmas

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:40 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:31 pm nothing... dec 25th is not real bday for former buddhist monk Jesus Christ who learnt morality and mundane understanding in India under buddhism lineage
There is no evidence that Jesus was a Buddhist monk. More a rather eccentric Rabbi.
look the missing years in bible.. where do u think he went? after he returned he performed miracles which at that time instruction available only from buddhist monasteries and his precepts were similar to buddhism to some extent.

however it seems he left the training after gaining some mundane powers and basic understanding of morality because he taught soul theory
Hello friend, this is an apparently old hoax created by Nicolas Notovitch.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Notovitch wrote:Notovitch is known for his 1894 book claiming that during the unknown years of Jesus, he left Galilee for India and studied with Buddhists and Hindus before returning to Judea. Notovitch's claim was based on a document he said he had seen at the Hemis Monastery while he stayed there.[4][5] The consensus view amongst modern scholars is that Notovitch's account of the travels of Jesus to India was a hoax.

It's similar to saying that the Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu to increase Hindu appeal.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Christmas

Post by Coëmgenu »

coconut wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:40 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:31 pm nothing... dec 25th is not real bday for former buddhist monk Jesus Christ who learnt morality and mundane understanding in India under buddhism lineage
There is no evidence that Jesus was a Buddhist monk. More a rather eccentric Rabbi.
Rabbis in Jerusalem believe Jesus was a Rabbi who was a levite and had access to "mind words" only accessible to high priests, and left the temple exploited his super normal powers which was against the rules for high priests. You can see Rabbis talking about it in this video:



Modern Judaism is more zoroastrian than original judaism though.
He's talking about receiving the name of God from the heavenly temple, like Moses and Abraham received. Abraham received the name in the form of a divine H from YHWH added to his name of "Abram." The name gives you a throne next to God and causes angelomorphization à la Enoch into Metatron. Your bones become iron. Your blood becomes fire, etc. The Gnostics among the Samaritans (now extinct) preserved a form of this name-granting theology, that God "names things" as himself, giving them his name, and lifts them up to thrones next to his, but likely the person being interviewed is explaining how divine miracles are performed by prophets from a Kabbalistic view.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
coconut
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Re: Christmas

Post by coconut »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:37 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:40 pm

There is no evidence that Jesus was a Buddhist monk. More a rather eccentric Rabbi.
Rabbis in Jerusalem believe Jesus was a Rabbi who was a levite and had access to "mind words" only accessible to high priests, and left the temple exploited his super normal powers which was against the rules for high priests. You can see Rabbis talking about it in this video:



Modern Judaism is more zoroastrian than original judaism though.
He's talking about receiving the name of God from the heavenly temple, like Moses and Abraham received. Abraham received the name in the form of a divine H from YHWH added to his name of "Abram." The name gives you a throne next to God and causes angelomorphization à la Enoch into Metatron. Your bones become iron. Your blood becomes fire, etc. The Gnostics among the Samaritans (now extinct) preserved a form of this name-granting theology, that God "names things" as himself, giving them his name, and lifts them up to thrones next to his, but likely the person being interviewed is explaining how divine miracles are performed by prophets from a Kabbalistic view.
Sounds about right, but from what I remember, moses was punished and "turned into a cloud forever watching his people" because he smashed the tablet with the 10 commandments.
JohnK
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Re: Christmas

Post by JohnK »

I try to see the alignment between the qualities of mind and heart that I attempt to cultivate on a regular basis and the qualities that are celebrated and promoted at Christmas, such as: generosity, universal goodwill and peace. Of course, Christmas is far from pure in this regard (but so am I). I try my best to lend "stealth support" to these values.

As Christmas gets practically done, there is much dukkha -- dealing with strongly held and sometimes conflicting expectations of how it's all supposed to be, being around those we may have difficulty with, not being around those we want to be with (e.g. those who have passed). It is a bit of a microcosm of the normal pressures of samsara (maybe in a pressure cooker): trying to produce happiness by controlling external circumstances -- these can't always be controlled as one would like; and if controlled reasonably, may not produce the planned for happiness; or that happiness quickly fades; very often disappointments, some deep. I remind myself of all this during the season, and try not to add to the difficulty. One act of generosity I like is "dropping my agenda" -- it's generous to me, too!

Good luck to all.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Christmas

Post by Coëmgenu »

coconut wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:20 pm Sounds about right, but from what I remember, moses was punished and "turned into a cloud forever watching his people" because he smashed the tablet with the 10 commandments.
I've not heard that myth, but don't doubt that it exists. Where is it from?
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:19 pm It's similar to saying that the Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu to increase Hindu appeal.
IMO the identification of Viṣṇu as the true identity of Śākyamuni is a re-analysis and misunderstanding of the previously-held doctrines of Vairocana as the true identify of Śākyamuni. The Indians, in exchanging their cosmopolitan and international Buddhism for localized and nationalist ethnic para-Vedic Hindu religion, exchanged a Buddhic deity for an ṛgvedic one. Often, in the days of the degeneration of Indian Mahāyāna, Buddhas would be re-analyzed as various Vedic and para-Vedic deities.

On terms of who invented the idea of Jesus going to India, there is also a claim by fake Rishis wishing to generate spiritual tourism money that Jesus's grave is supposedly in India. It's also supposedly in Japan and he also supposedly visited Japan. He also supposedly visited France if you read medieval French literature.

Most modern "Jesus was trained in India" mythology is based on contemporary claims of Indian spiritual masters based on the grave hoax.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
coconut
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Re: Christmas

Post by coconut »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:54 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:20 pm Sounds about right, but from what I remember, moses was punished and "turned into a cloud forever watching his people" because he smashed the tablet with the 10 commandments.
I've not heard that myth, but don't doubt that it exists. Where is it from?
Probably a rabbinical interpretation I heard long ago
The earlier ones present the hero's death as a worthy close to his life. It takes place in a miraculous way; and the hero meets it quietly and resignedly. He ascends Mount Abarim accompanied by the elders of the people, and Joshua and Eleazar; and while he is talking with them a cloud suddenly surrounds him and he disappears. He was prompted by modesty to say in the Torah that he died a natural death, in order that people should not say that God had taken him alive into heaven on account of his piety.[196] The event is described somewhat differently, but equally simply, in Sifre.[197]
Under "death" section

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_i ... literature
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Christmas

Post by Coëmgenu »

coconut wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:09 pm Under "death" section

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_i ... literature
The source is Josephus, very interesting. The cloud is likely the shekhina, the same pillar of smoke that supposedly lead the Israelites out of Egypt.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Christmas

Post by cappuccino »

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Thomas Kinkade
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Sam Vara
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Re: Christmas

Post by Sam Vara »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:54 pm

On terms of who invented the idea of Jesus going to India, there is also a claim by fake Rishis wishing to generate spiritual tourism money that Jesus's grave is supposedly in India. It's also supposedly in Japan and he also supposedly visited Japan. He also supposedly visited France if you read medieval French .
England also, supposedly brought by Joseph of Arimathea when a young boy.

"And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic Mills?"
Spiny Norman
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Re: Christmas

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:34 am How will you be spending it?
As a Pagan festival, which is what it really is. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
coconut
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Re: Christmas

Post by coconut »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:57 pm
coconut wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:09 pm Under "death" section

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_i ... literature
The source is Josephus, very interesting. The cloud is likely the shekhina, the same pillar of smoke that supposedly lead the Israelites out of Egypt.
This part sounds like God = maha brahma, and the angel of death = mara.
He then said: "Lord of the world, until now I desired to live; but now I am willing to die." As the angel of death was afraid to take his soul, God Himself, accompanied by Gabriel, Michael, and Zagziel, the former teacher of Moses, descended to get it. Moses blessed the people, begged their forgiveness for any injuries he might have done them, and took leave of them with the assurance that he would see them again at the resurrection of the dead.
There's a sutta where an ariya dies after attaining Arahantship and Mara takes the form of smoke and looks for where he was reborn but the Buddha says that mara will not find him because the monk attained nibbana. So the imagery of mara = smoke = angel of death seems to fit well.
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Re: Christmas

Post by Dhammanando »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:34 am How will you be spending it?
For Western monks in Thailand Christmas Day is not much different from any other, except that many Thais very thoughtfully go out of their way to make us feel at home by laying on special Christmas fare. And so on almsround this morning, as well as the usual sticky rice, boiled bamboo shoots, etc., I was given thirty-seven tangerines (on a normal day it would be just two or three) and a funny red hat.
:sage:

The only change to my normal routine will be at 10 pm Indochina time / 3 pm GMT, when I tune in to listen to Queen Elizabeth's Christmas message. Here's the youtube link for anyone who wants to join me:

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheRoyalChannel
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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WindDancer
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Re: Christmas

Post by WindDancer »

JohnK wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:37 pm I try to see the alignment between the qualities of mind and heart that I attempt to cultivate on a regular basis and the qualities that are celebrated and promoted at Christmas, such as: generosity, universal goodwill and peace. Of course, Christmas is far from pure in this regard (but so am I). I try my best to lend "stealth support" to these values.

As Christmas gets practically done, there is much dukkha -- dealing with strongly held and sometimes conflicting expectations of how it's all supposed to be, being around those we may have difficulty with, not being around those we want to be with (e.g. those who have passed). It is a bit of a microcosm of the normal pressures of samsara (maybe in a pressure cooker): trying to produce happiness by controlling external circumstances -- these can't always be controlled as one would like; and if controlled reasonably, may not produce the planned for happiness; or that happiness quickly fades; very often disappointments, some deep. I remind myself of all this during the season, and try not to add to the difficulty. One act of generosity I like is "dropping my agenda" -- it's generous to me, too!

Good luck to all.
:goodpost:

Thank you for all you shared.

Peace,

WindDancer
Live Gently....
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Kim OHara
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Re: Christmas

Post by Kim OHara »

JohnK wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:37 pm I try to see the alignment between the qualities of mind and heart that I attempt to cultivate on a regular basis and the qualities that are celebrated and promoted at Christmas, such as: generosity, universal goodwill and peace. Of course, Christmas is far from pure in this regard (but so am I). I try my best to lend "stealth support" to these values.

As Christmas gets practically done, there is much dukkha -- dealing with strongly held and sometimes conflicting expectations of how it's all supposed to be, being around those we may have difficulty with, not being around those we want to be with (e.g. those who have passed). It is a bit of a microcosm of the normal pressures of samsara (maybe in a pressure cooker): trying to produce happiness by controlling external circumstances -- these can't always be controlled as one would like; and if controlled reasonably, may not produce the planned for happiness; or that happiness quickly fades; very often disappointments, some deep. I remind myself of all this during the season, and try not to add to the difficulty. One act of generosity I like is "dropping my agenda" -- it's generous to me, too!

Good luck to all.
:goodpost:

For most of us here in Australia the festival is really a secular one. As such, it doesn't clash with the dharma any more than the rest of our secular life.

Being nice to family who you only see because :quote: they are family and we should see family at Christmas :quote: has often been a challenge for me but for one reason or another the problematic ones aren't around this year, so I've just spent a very long lunch with half a dozen people who actually get on well together. :group: :toast:

The other aspect that has aroused my opposition over the years is the shameless consumerism and materialism. My family have moved in my direction on that (whether because of my pushing or a general greenie tendency, I don't know) and most gifts exchanged between us are local, arts/craft or charity-sourced (or all three) so that's okay, too.

I did play with the idea of modifying the language of the Four Immeasurable Thoughts, without changing its intention at all, to use it as a Christmas wish to my friends on social media. It was too tricky for the time I had free at the time, but it's very appropriate here and now so ... best wishes for Christmas as it arrives in your time zone, everyone:
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May all beings rejoice in the well-being of others.
May all beings live in peace, free from greed and hatred.
https://www.lionsroar.com/the-four-imme ... untouched/

:namaste:
Kim
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Christmas

Post by salayatananirodha »

a couple of people at work asked/assumed i don't celebrate christmas since i am buddhist. i said not as a religious holiday but as a secular one, sure. however, i have a very small family and we try to be generous the entire year. around this time, we're out of money.
i'm playing town of salem (a browser game) and listening to iron maiden. getting paid for the whole day even tho i'm off.
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