Celibacy and motivation

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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Sam Vara
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Celibacy and motivation

Post by Sam Vara »

An interesting article on celibacy and the wholesomeness of the attitudes behind it, from Paññobhāsa:
The human universe is composed of conflicting, or at least mutually reacting, opposites such as stasis/change, self/other, truth/falsehood, good/bad, pleasure/pain, happiness/unhappiness, right/left, beauty/ugliness, heart/head, security/freedom, work/play, and on and on; and one of the really big ones for us is the occasionally oppositional dichotomy of male and female. This kinetic balance of complementary at best, oppositional at worst energies results in some of the most phenomenal ecstasy and also some of the greatest misery that we humans experience on this plane of existence. Romantic love can be a real roller coaster ride, largely avoiding smooth, neutral sailing in favor of the ups and downs of emotional positive and negative
.
http://politicallyincorrectdharma.blogs ... women.html
coconut
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by coconut »

That quote seems to be more about relationships than sex. There are relationships where a couple rarely has sex but still a lot of drama.

I would imagine 2 lay sotapannas who are in relationship do not have much drama.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:06 am
...
Also good:
“THE NECESSITY OF CELIBACY

Practice of celibacy is always beneficial. Even for a lay person, who is not necessarily Buddhist or familiar with the Dhamma. The obvious reason for its benefits is the inevitable increase of the mental strength that comes with the restraint. This restraint is intentional and aims at a very powerful desire that otherwise shapes and controls one’s whole life. Sensuality/sexuality is something that heavily contributes towards defining one’s actions and choices. It is something that has at least some influence in virtually all of them.

Thus, adopting a practice of restraint of the sensual desire, a person will be going against that grain of the natural sexual pull of one’s own body. Through willingly imposing this restraint, the mind will be pressured to grow – in terms of strength and in terms of enduring of itself. (As the case with any strength development is. Gradually increasing resistance, increases the capacity to hold the very same.)

Sometimes people think that not having sexual intercourse is all that being celibate means. That doesn’t constitute the celibacy we are talking about here. The difference is to not be celibate only because the current circumstances are presenting no options, but to actually be celibate as a result of determination and practice of restraint.”
https://www.hillsidehermitage.org/the-n ... -celibacy/

I think the last paragraph makes a good point. There is a difference between being voluntary celibate and being an incel. I think someone could easily delude themselves into thinking they are practicing celibacy simply because they can’t get a partner and sex, when in fact it’s simply a case of not currently being able to indulge in it. You have to not only refrain from all sexual activity, which I admit can be hard at times, but also be mentally prepared to live alone and to accept that you might very well die alone, as well as having the strength to say no when a potential partner comes along which, for many people, also means renouncing having any children.

Due to how I view the Dhamma I think subtle feelings of loneliness will always present themselves due to contact at the mind base. A life of celibacy doesn’t get rid of all that. I don’t think they completely disappear even for Arahants. The trick is to live with those mental contacts wisely. It’s a lifelong thing.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Sam Vara
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:11 am
I think the last paragraph makes a good point. There is a difference between being voluntary celibate and being an incel. I think someone could easily delude themselves into thinking they are practicing celibacy simply because they can’t get a partner and sex, when in fact it’s simply a case of not currently being able to indulge in it.
:goodpost: I've shared this here before, but on one occasion I was on retreat and during a discussion on supporting conditionsfor meditation, the teacher asked how many people were living celibate lives.

"Go on, put your hand up if you are currently celibate."

About a quarter of the room proudly put their hands up.

"...Right, keep them up...now put your hand down if it's just because you can't get laid!"
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:14 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:11 am
I think the last paragraph makes a good point. There is a difference between being voluntary celibate and being an incel. I think someone could easily delude themselves into thinking they are practicing celibacy simply because they can’t get a partner and sex, when in fact it’s simply a case of not currently being able to indulge in it.
:goodpost: I've shared this here before, but on one occasion I was on retreat and during a discussion on supporting conditionsfor meditation, the teacher asked how many people were living celibate lives.

"Go on, put your hand up if you are currently celibate."

About a quarter of the room proudly put their hands up.

"...Right, keep them up...now put your hand down if it's just because you can't get laid!"
Yes I remember :jumping:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Bundokji
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by Bundokji »

I am not sure if taking a vow of celibacy making it harder or creates more resistance. What would be the answer according to the logic presented by the article?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Ionbuddy
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by Ionbuddy »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:14 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:11 am
I think the last paragraph makes a good point. There is a difference between being voluntary celibate and being an incel. I think someone could easily delude themselves into thinking they are practicing celibacy simply because they can’t get a partner and sex, when in fact it’s simply a case of not currently being able to indulge in it.
:goodpost: I've shared this here before, but on one occasion I was on retreat and during a discussion on supporting conditionsfor meditation, the teacher asked how many people were living celibate lives.

"Go on, put your hand up if you are currently celibate."

About a quarter of the room proudly put their hands up.

"...Right, keep them up...now put your hand down if it's just because you can't get laid!"
Interesting take. I suppose it wouldn't take much effort not to do it, if you can't. Though I have to say this sounds very out of place when it comes to spiritual practice.
I still have defilements.
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by SteRo »

Sensuality isn't inherently bad or harmful. Find out with right insight whether it supports or obstructs continuous ease in your case and if it obstructs then find out what it is in your sphere of experience that makes sensuality obstructive.
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auto
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by auto »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:06 am An interesting article on celibacy and the wholesomeness of the attitudes behind it, from Paññobhāsa:
The human universe is composed of conflicting, or at least mutually reacting, opposites such as stasis/change, self/other, truth/falsehood, good/bad, pleasure/pain, happiness/unhappiness, right/left, beauty/ugliness, heart/head, security/freedom, work/play, and on and on; and one of the really big ones for us is the occasionally oppositional dichotomy of male and female. This kinetic balance of complementary at best, oppositional at worst energies results in some of the most phenomenal ecstasy and also some of the greatest misery that we humans experience on this plane of existence. Romantic love can be a real roller coaster ride, largely avoiding smooth, neutral sailing in favor of the ups and downs of emotional positive and negative
.
http://politicallyincorrectdharma.blogs ... women.html
Pleasure and pain arises thanks to the intention in the body what can be exploited
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.25/en/sujato wrote:Ānanda, as long as there’s a body, the intention that gives rise to bodily action causes pleasure and pain to arise in oneself.
Kāye vā hānanda, sati kāyasañcetanāhetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.
..
By oneself one instigates the choice that gives rise to bodily, verbal, and mental action, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself.Sāmaṃ vā taṃ, ānanda, kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.
It seem that the body without ignorance can't be exploited anymore for to get pleasure and pain.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.25/en/sujato wrote: Ignorance is included in all these things.Imesu, ānanda, dhammesu avijjā anupatitā.

But when ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, there is no body and no voice and no mind, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself.Avijjāya tveva, ānanda, asesavirāganirodhā so kāyo na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Sā vācā na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. So mano na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.

There is no field, no ground, no scope, no basis, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself.”Khettaṃ taṃ na hoti … pe … vatthu taṃ na hoti … pe … āyatanaṃ taṃ na hoti … pe … adhikaraṇaṃ taṃ na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhan”ti.
Body without ignorance is body without sankharas, it doesn't have in and out breathing, that also rules out unconscious breathing.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.25/en/sujato wrote:One consciously instigates the choice …Sampajāno vā taṃ, ānanda, kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.
Or else one unconsciously instigates the choice …Asampajāno vā taṃ, ānanda, kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.
auto
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:49 am Sensuality isn't inherently bad or harmful. Find out with right insight whether it supports or obstructs continuous ease in your case and if it obstructs then find out what it is in your sphere of experience that makes sensuality obstructive.
Eliminate passion for things what you understand to be not self. Pleasure from copulation is coming from fabricating bodily fabrications and therefore one should find more subtle escape from the bodily dukkha.
surangama wrote:‘You should teach worldly men who practise Samàdhi
to cut off their lustful minds at the very start. This is called the
Buddha’s profound teaching of the first decisive deed.
i have seen you mention decisive insight, but have you heard of decisive deed?
surangama wrote:Therefore, ânanda, if carnality is not wiped out, the practice
of dhyàna is like cooking gravel to make rice; even if it is
boiled for hundreds and thousands of aeons, it will be only
hot gravel. Why? Because instead of rice grains it contains
only stones.
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:50 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:49 am Sensuality isn't inherently bad or harmful. Find out with right insight whether it supports or obstructs continuous ease in your case and if it obstructs then find out what it is in your sphere of experience that makes sensuality obstructive.
Eliminate passion for things what you understand to be not self. Pleasure from copulation is coming from fabricating bodily fabrications and therefore one should find more subtle escape from the bodily dukkha.
Your words appear to be expression of doctrinal conceptuality ("one should"). Please note that I said " Find out with right insight whether it supports or obstructs ...". So my words are intended as encouragement for seeking insight, my words are not intended as encouragement for parroting doctrinal concepts. My words leave it open for anyone to investigate for themselves and find out for themselves to get to know for themselves.

But as to "sensuality" and its connotation in English see here. Maybe I should have written "Enjoyment of sexuality isn't inherently bad or harmful."
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:53 pm Please note that I said " Find out with right insight whether it supports or obstructs ...". So my words are intended as encouragement for seeking insight, my words are not intended as encouragement for parroting doctrinal concepts. My words leave it open for anyone to investigate for themselves and find out for themselves to get to know for themselves.

But as to "sensuality" and its connotation in English see here. Maybe I should have written "Enjoyment of sexuality isn't inherently bad or harmful."
Someone who has passion for the form likely doesn't find form to be an obstruction. Unless knowing that the form is not self you won't start train to get rid of the passion for something what is not your self.
Your notion is just temporal ease perspective but not beyond birth and death.
Last edited by auto on Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ionbuddy
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by Ionbuddy »

By the way, how do prostitutes factor into this?
I still have defilements.
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ionbuddy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:29 pm By the way, how do prostitutes factor into this?
What do you mean?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ionbuddy
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Re: Celibacy and motivation

Post by Ionbuddy »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:58 pm
Ionbuddy wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:29 pm By the way, how do prostitutes factor into this?
What do you mean?
Shouldn't it be obvious? A person can just pay for sex. The only real difference I see is the potential to have sex for free, otherwise it's not much different.
I still have defilements.
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