Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

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SDC
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by SDC »

Mr Man wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:13 pm That is the reality even if you are a fan.
AN 5.42 wrote:Bhikkhus, when a good person is born in a family, it is for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people. It is for the good, welfare, and happiness of (1) his mother and father, (2) his wife and children, (3) his slaves, workers, and servants, (4) his friends and companions, and (5) ascetics and brahmins. Just as a great rain cloud, nurturing all the crops, appears for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people, so too, when a good person is born in a family, it is for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people. It is for the good, welfare, and happiness of his mother and father … ascetics and brahmins.”

The deities protect one guarded by the Dhamma,
who has managed his wealth for the welfare of many.
Fame does not forsake one steadfast in the Dhamma,
who is learned and of virtuous behavior and observances.

Who is fit to blame him,
standing in Dhamma,
accomplished in virtuous behavior,
a speaker of truth,
possessing a sense of shame,
pure like a coin of refined gold?
Even the devas praise him;
by Brahmā, too, he is praised.
Considering Trump makes the choice to display a lack of a "sense of shame" (hiri), and additionally little "fear of wrongdoing" (ottappa), at best the stretch could be that he wants his inner wholesome qualities to remain hidden, like Hatthaka of Āḷavī (SN 8.23). Although it seems as though Hatthaka's other outward qualities, namely virtue and generosity, were clearly evident to those around him, as they are for the "good person" described above. Unfortunately for Trump, his virtue and generosity were not recognized nor praised directly by the Buddha according to an account of Ananda, and we are left with a bit of evidence to contrary.

Nevertheless, the topic would have to be with respect to Trump's alignment with the Dhamma to do so, and since retro's comparison is beside that point, he is well within his right to make the comparison according to the new rule, and my exposure of Trump's character could be off-topic, if I am not careful to make it relevant to what is being discussed. Point being, if you feel a comparison is weak, do the work to clearly show otherwise. Believe me, you can take a quote from the worst human to ever exist and find something in the suttas to compare it to - if it upsets you, dig into the suttas to undo it, while remaining with the topic at hand.

Retro please let me know if I perhaps helped bring out the meaning here.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mr Man & Nicholas,

Thank you for your words above.

Since this topic is for the purpose of further clarification, I have gone back and replaced the word "explicitly" with "specifically", in my earlier answer to Mr. Man, since it is the specifics of the content which should be, as per the new rule, "traceable".

For example when Trump says words like "we'll make no progress and heal no wounds by falsely labeling tens of millions of decent Americans as racist", this is in accord with the Dhammapada who praises "he who does not judge others arbitrarily, but passes judgment impartially according to the truth."

The connection is visible and established. It's not a matter of whether a member or moderator agrees with the statement or inference, or whether a member or moderator likes the words or not, or whether the speaker of those words self-identifies as a Buddhist... it's whether a reasonable attempt has been made at tracing the specifics of the content, back to something found in the vast body of Theravada scripture - Sutta, Vinaya, Abhidhamma or commentary.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings SDC & Mr. Man,
SDC wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:55 pm Retro please let me know if I perhaps helped bring out the meaning here.
I'm not sure. To me the words felt a little circuitous, and that makes it hard for me to know for sure. Perhaps Mr. Man can answer whether it helps his understanding?

Perhaps you could share something "political" SDC, and "trace" it back to the suttas according to the new requirement, to demonstrate the process?

I'll do once more with an example that hopefully doesn't get Mr Man's hackles up this time simply by virtue of the person's name who spoke it.

What Martin Luther King envisions here...
Martin Luther King wrote:“I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character”.
...can be traced back to ideas found in Theravada doctrine, such as:
Vasala Sutta wrote:"Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman."
Thus, to post it, I would need to make an effort to trace it, as done. And to SDC's point above, it would still need to be on-topic, as does anything else.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by Dan74 »

I think the context is the elephant in the room. Words taken out of context can be made to mean many different things. "All lives matter" is a good example perhaps. On its face value, it asserts a universal truth. And when one looks at the critique of the slogan, no objection to this universal truth are to be found. The problem comes in the context, which in its turn leads to rather different interpretations, depending on which context one find pertinent. If one takes the context as being a current state which is unjust to black people, whose lives through the actions of law enforcement officers appear not to matter, then the slogan translates to "black lives matter too (since white lives already matter)". If one does not accept this context as factual, then it becomes grievance mongering, a ploy to get special treatment, etc.

So my basic point is that even when words seemingly align with the Dhamma, if they are spoken in a heated political climate, they are charged with the contextual meaning and therefore controversial.
Last edited by Dan74 on Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan,

Thanks for your words.
Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:55 pm I think the context is the elephant in the room.
And so it is clear, the context is this forum, and the topic in which the content is shared.

External political contexts, whether reasonable, cynical or neurotic, are not relevant as they are not the scope of this forum, and they are presumably not the topic.

Thus, both (lowercase) "black lives matter" and "all lives matter" could easily be traced back to something like the Karaniya Metta Sutta as truthful statements in accordance with the Dhamma.

People's private contextual meanings of those and other phrases, ideas and concepts are theirs to deal with, as per Section 4 of the Terms of Service, and discussion will not be moderated with reference to them.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by Dan74 »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:07 pm Greetings Dan,

Thanks for your words.
Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:55 pm I think the context is the elephant in the room.
And so it is clear, the context is this forum, and the topic in which the content is shared.

External political contexts, whether reasonable or neurotic, are not relevant as they are not the scope of this forum, and they are presumably not the topic.

Thus, both (lowercase) "black lives matter" and "all lives matter" could easily be traced back to something like the Karaniya Metta Sutta as truthful statements in accordance with the Dhamma.

People's private contextual meanings of those and other phrases, ideas and concepts are theirs to deal with, as per Section 4 of the Terms of Service, and discussion will not be moderated with reference to them.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Private contextual meanings may well be, but what of shared contexts? Can words ever be divorced from these contexts? Their intent? Can we just toss Wittgenstein into the dust bin?

Yes, some statements are less charged with controversy and a shared ground can be more easily established. Others not. People in the position of power may simply assert that this is the meaning and everyone else who disagrees is being neurotic. But even their supporters may knowingly wink and say 'sure, we know what you really mean here.' It's just not so simple, I think.
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan,

Those considerations are "political" and they may be considerations at DWE and DWM which both have allowances for political content not traced back to the Pali Scriptures.

However, they are precisely the sorts of mind contorting papanca-sanna-sankha that we are endeavouring to shield this forum from, by keeping untraced and unrelated political content (and people's feelings about it) at DWE where it belongs. Not here, where it doesn't.

There will always be controversy. That is not denied. Theravada itself has a commentarial treatise entitled Points Of Controversy. This however does not require Theravada or this forum to take on the world's controversies as well, especially when they are disruptive to the operation of the forum and its intent.

As per the guidance in the announcement, if it doubt, take it to DWE or ask staff.

Thank you for your understanding.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:55 pm
So my basic point is that even when words seemingly align with the Dhamma, if they are spoken in a heated political climate, they are charged with the contextual meaning and therefore controversial.
Are we ignoring or forgetting the Mind? There is no 'heated political climate' nor does 'contextual meaning' appear aside from a mind or minds who radiate & create them. Thus we come back to a real basis or foundation - the Buddha's Dhamma. That Dhamma puts the onus on people to control & purify their minds.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Nicholas,

Well said.
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:54 pm Thus we come back to a real basis or foundation - the Buddha's Dhamma. That Dhamma puts the onus on people to control & purify their minds.
Indeed, which is why we are here, and why Sections 1 and 4 of the Terms of Service look as they do.

Thank you for the highly insightful and relevant reply.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

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retrofuturist wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:41 pm Perhaps you could share something "political" SDC, and "trace" it back to the suttas according to the new requirement, to demonstrate the process?
If I were to have participated further in the thread is question....

I spent a bit of time the last few days looking over some suttas with King Pasenadi. I opted for the affairs of a King over regular citizens, as the decisions of a King would have the most widespread effect on the lives of the people - just as today's laws and institutions would do the same. I believe it would show a case where the Buddha had the opportunity to affect those decisions, i.e. if the Buddha were going to engage in the equivalent modern activism, that would have been his best chance.

I was unable to find one instance where the Buddha neglected to prioritize the Path over whatever worldly affair toward which the kings were involved. In the very least, the Buddha would instruct the King to be virtuous and diligent, and almost never take a moral stand on a specific issue. The instructions were always general, rooted in virtue, duty or the Dhamma itself. This is true throughout the all the linked discourses with the Kosalan King.

As I suggested in our recent Monastic Activism thread, if a member of the monastic community wanted to address a current social issue, I think it would make sense to do the same. As lay people, I imagine we can only follow suit and immediately engage in the same prioritization, and quite like the Buddha in the following sutta, we should do so without wasting time trying to justify it. The nature of existence is itself is more than enough justification for why liberation should take that priority:
SN 3.25 wrote:At Sāvatthī.

King Pasenadi of Kosala sat to one side, and the Buddha said to him, “So, great king, where are you coming from in the middle of the day?”

“Sir, there are anointed aristocratic kings who are infatuated with authority, and obsessed with greed for sensual pleasures. They have attained stability in the country, occupying a vast conquered territory. Today I have been busy fulfilling the duties of such kings.”

“What do you think, great king? Suppose a trustworthy and reliable man were to come from the east. He’d approach you and say: ‘Please sir, you should know this. I come from the east. There I saw a huge mountain that reached the clouds. And it was coming this way, crushing all creatures. So then, great king, do what you must!’

Then a second trustworthy and reliable man were to come from the west … a third from the north … and a fourth from the south. He’d approach you and say: ‘Please sir, you should know this. I come from the south. There I saw a huge mountain that reached the clouds. And it was coming this way, crushing all creatures. So then, great king, do what you must!’

Should such a dire threat arise—a terrible loss of human life, when human birth is so rare—what would you do?”

“Sir, what could I do but practice the teachings, practice morality, doing skillful and good actions?”

“I tell you, great king, I announce to you: old age and death are advancing upon you. Since old age and death are advancing upon you, what would you do?”

“Sir, what can I do but practice the teachings, practice morality, doing skillful and good actions?

Sir, there are anointed aristocratic kings who are infatuated with authority, and obsessed with greed for sensual pleasures. They have attained stability in the country, occupying a vast conquered territory. Such kings engage in battles of elephants, cavalry, chariots, or infantry. But there is no place, no scope for such battles when old age and death are advancing.

In this royal court there are ministers of wise counsel who are capable of dividing an approaching enemy by wise counsel. But there is no place, no scope for such diplomatic battles when old age and death are advancing.

In this royal court there is abundant gold coin and bullion stored in dungeons and towers. Using this wealth we can pay off an approaching enemy. But there is no place, no scope for such monetary battles when old age and death are advancing.

When old age and death are advancing, what can I do but practice the teachings, practice morality, doing skillful and good actions?”

“That’s so true, great king! That’s so true! When old age and death are advancing, what can you do but practice the teachings, practice morality, doing skillful and good actions?”

That is what the Buddha said. Then the Holy One, the Teacher, went on to say:

“Suppose there were vast mountains
of solid rock touching the sky
drawing in from all sides
and crushing the four quarters.

So too old age and death
advance upon all living creatures—
aristocrats, brahmins, merchants,
workers, outcastes, and scavengers.
They spare nothing.
They crush all beneath them.

There’s nowhere for elephants to take a stand,
nor chariots nor infantry.
They can’t be defeated
by diplomatic battles or by wealth
.

That’s why an astute person,
seeing what’s good for themselves,
being wise, would place faith
in the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha.

Whoever lives by the teaching
in body, speech, and mind,
is praised in this life
and departs to rejoice in heaven.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings JohnK,
JohnK wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:10 pm Per the above clarification, it seems to me that quoting a politician and demonstrating that what they said was consistent (or inconsistent) with scripture is for DWE not DW , but I may be missing something.
:anjali:
What you say is right as far as it goes, but from a moderation perspective, part of the challenge we have at Dhamma Wheel is that we have a mix of:

- Bhikkhus speaking in accord with Theravada
- Bhikkhus speaking things opposed to or unrelated to Theravada
- Members speaking in accord with Theravada
- Members speaking things opposed to or unrelated to Theravada
- Embeddable sources speaking in accord with Theravada
- Embeddable sources speaking things opposed to or unrelated to Theravada

So, with that, how do we make the discussion about or in accord with Theravada? How do we exclude things opposed to or unrelated to Theravada?

The trick seems not to base it upon the identity of the speaker, but to base it upon conformity with the doctrines of Theravada - namely, the Tipitaka and the Commentaries. Hence, why there's an expectation now that "content", regardless of who posts it, which might appear "political", would now need to be traced back to the Dhamma.

Such traceability draws its origins from the Four Great References of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (as quoted in the next post) except that in our case, the onus for the traceability lies with the one uttering (or embedding) those words.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings SDC,

Indeed, that is a good basis and reason by which for people to speak directly from the Dhamma... no tracing is required!

As per the Mahaparinibbana Sutta...
And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."
However, it is not an expectation of our membership that people already be knowledgeable in Theravada Buddhism so it's unrealistic to expect them to do this tracing on behalf of the speaker.

Also, as an added bonus, if words spoken cannot be traced and are thereby rejected, that exercise might help newcomers to avoid being misled into taking false dhammas as the Dhamma. Similarly, if people speak false dhammas, under the influence of political and secular views, they may indeed come to learn it is otherwise in this doctrine and discipline.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by Mr Man »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:26 pm
Since this topic is for the purpose of further clarification, I have gone back and replaced the word "explicitly" with "specifically", in my earlier answer to Mr. Man, since it is the specifics of the content which should be, as per the new rule, "traceable".

Paul, for something to be "traceable" it needs to have originated from a certain location.

It may be perceived that something said aligns with the Buddha's teaching but it would not be traceable unless the Buddha's teaching was the point of origination.
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:13 am Paul, for something to be "traceable" it needs to have originated from a certain location.

It may be perceived that something said aligns with the Buddha's teaching but it would not be traceable unless the Buddha's teaching was the point of origination.
Many matters of the Dhamma, especially as they pertain to Sila, are common between multiple religions. That is why certain things are often regarded as "universal truths". What we understand in this tradition as Right View with asavas (per MN 117) could be said to exist in other religions or paths that are adept, in greater or lesser degrees at differentiating good from evil... Hinduism, Jainism, Christianity, Judaism etc

As such, whilst the Buddha's Dhamma has (or at least, in our tradition claims) a monopoly on Right View without asavas, which is transcendent and leading to nibbana, the field is much more open about what could be said to accord with Right View with asavas, or morality (Sila) in general.

If things are moral, they are moral, whether done in the name of, or explicitly because of, the Blessed One's teachings. Similarly with that which is good and wholesome. Being true in other spheres, does not automatically make them wrong in ours, as we are not all contrarians.

:buddha1:
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Important Terms of Service update regarding political matters

Post by Mr Man »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:26 am
Many matters of the Dhamma, especially as they pertain to Sila, are common between multiple religions. That is why certain things are often regarded as "universal truths". What we understand in this tradition as Right View with asavas (per MN 117) could be said to exist in other religions or paths that are adept, in greater or lesser degrees at differentiating good from evil... Hinduism, Jainism, Christianity, Judaism etc

As such, whilst the Buddha's Dhamma has (or at least, in our tradition claims) a monopoly on Right View without asavas, which is transcendent and leading to nibbana, the field is much more open about what could be said to accord with Right View with asavas, or morality (Sila) in general.

If things are moral, they are moral, whether done in the name of, or explicitly because of, the Blessed One's teachings. Similarly with that which is good and wholesome. Being true in other spheres, does not automatically make them wrong in ours, as we are not all contrarians.
Yes other teachings can align with the Buddha's teaching. Parallels can sometimes be found. But they are not "traceable" to the Buddha's teaching, as the Buddha's teaching is not the point of origination.
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