I have been using a generic version of "Program" that sterilizes fleas and effectively gets rid of them in my home. Now the name brand and generic versions are no longer available on Amazon. I found some on e-Bay but not available from US suppliers or mainstream retail.
If anyone has an effective way of ridding fleas from cats without "killing" the fleas; i.e., effective repellant, sterilizing, etc., I would appreciate the references!
Thank you
moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
Do not have pets instead help to protect wild life.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
There may be a very good reason for that. Best google "Program."no mike wrote:I have been using a generic version of "Program" that sterilizes fleas and effectively gets rid of them in my home. Now the name brand and generic versions are no longer available on Amazon. I found some on e-Bay but not available from US suppliers or mainstream retail.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
After my daughter volunteered at the shelter I agreed to let her adopt a cat. A year later we went back and got it a friend.SarathW wrote:Do not have pets instead help to protect wild life.
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
I had done that but nothing turned up.tiltbillings wrote:There may be a very good reason for that. Best google "Program."no mike wrote:I have been using a generic version of "Program" that sterilizes fleas and effectively gets rid of them in my home. Now the name brand and generic versions are no longer available on Amazon. I found some on e-Bay but not available from US suppliers or mainstream retail.
All I can imagine is the possibility that a product that does not kill is a product that may not be successful or in high demand in the West. I found a company on eBay selling Program from Thailand. But that does not convince me that the product was never pulled off the shelf for health or safety reasons.
Are you aware of a recall, etc.?
As silly as it all sounds, this is an important matter to me. Not sure if there is a solution, but I don't like seeing these cats suffer.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
Program kills:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufenuron
Also, I certainly hope you do not let your cats run loose outside.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufenuron
Also, I certainly hope you do not let your cats run loose outside.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
I just googled "program flea control" and it looks to be available in the US.no mike wrote:I have been using a generic version of "Program" that sterilizes fleas and effectively gets rid of them in my home. Now the name brand and generic versions are no longer available on Amazon. I found some on e-Bay but not available from US suppliers or mainstream retail.
If anyone has an effective way of ridding fleas from cats without "killing" the fleas; i.e., effective repellant, sterilizing, etc., I would appreciate the references!
Thank you
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6512
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
Program, along with any other products containing Lufenuron, have been banned in Iceland and Sweden for the last ten years, and throughout the European Union for the last six years. The active ingredient is lethal to zooplankton.no mike wrote:Are you aware of a recall, etc.?
I'm afraid there's no solution at present. If one is going to keep cats then one just has to bite the bullet and accept the necessity of compromising either on ahiṃsā or on one's pets' health. Even the product you've been using up to now isn't fully ahiṃsā-compatible: Lufenuron may not kill the adult fleas but it does kill their larvae.As silly as it all sounds, this is an important matter to me. Not sure if there is a solution, but I don't like seeing these cats suffer.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6512
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
Here's a useful chart showing all the flea-related products and what they do.
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_fl ... rison.html
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_fl ... rison.html
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
Bhante how do you handle this problem?
I understand you look after many homeless cats.
I understand you look after many homeless cats.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6512
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
Luckily I'm not faced with this dilemma. I live at the summit of a cold mountain where there aren't any fleas to speak of and the only bugs that afflict our cats and dogs are blood-sucking ticks and leeches. These are large enough that they can be manually removed without harming them.SarathW wrote:Bhante how do you handle this problem?
I understand you look after many homeless cats.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
Reviewing Ven. Dhammanando's excellent comments, one might then resolve ( this does not derive from Bhante's comments; these are my own) to use a product that eradicates the larvae, and then use some other means to remove the live adults without killing them. In other words, is the weight of the kamma of killing flea larvae so heavy so as to outweigh the negative effects of fleas infesting one's cats and one's home, and bringing the resultant nuisance and even illness? Use a product that kills the larvae.
One lesson that I take from the Buddha's example of the Middle Way is to avoid extremes that may be unwise or harmful. Is the killing of flea larvae a violation of the First Precept? Is a flea larvae a sentient being, such that it's killing is dark kamma? These are the questions that each of us can weigh and resolve. But given the overall need to preserve one's own health and that of the sentient companion cats, I see the weight of the killing of flea larvae as incredibly minor if not completely neutral.
If the product you use has environmental concerns, then be sure to use it in a way that does not cause unintended harmful consequences, even to zooplankton, a species that includes jellyfish ( I did not know this before...).
One lesson that I take from the Buddha's example of the Middle Way is to avoid extremes that may be unwise or harmful. Is the killing of flea larvae a violation of the First Precept? Is a flea larvae a sentient being, such that it's killing is dark kamma? These are the questions that each of us can weigh and resolve. But given the overall need to preserve one's own health and that of the sentient companion cats, I see the weight of the killing of flea larvae as incredibly minor if not completely neutral.
If the product you use has environmental concerns, then be sure to use it in a way that does not cause unintended harmful consequences, even to zooplankton, a species that includes jellyfish ( I did not know this before...).
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
Getting rid of the flea or the larvae is the result of anger.
Why can't we consider fleas as a pet?
Why do we consider a cat is more cuter than a flea?
Why can't we consider fleas as a pet?
Why do we consider a cat is more cuter than a flea?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
One of the benefits of a hairless cat is that they don't normally attract flees. When they do, they can be seen easily and removed without harming them.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: moral dilemma flea control & no more program??
My wife said: 'ask him: "How do you ever catch them? They jump!" 'Ben wrote:One of the benefits of a hairless cat is that they don't normally attract flees. When they do, they can be seen easily and removed without harming them.
[i'duh askd: the fleeing fleas feasibly flood flowingly? how the flock? Factual or flatulence?]
But jest said, "Yes, dear."
Balls in your court, Ben!
signed
- sorry to bother
- just clean up my mess for me, mom, if
- off topic
- inappropriate
- ad dominum attack [take two asprin and call me in the morning or anytime, just don't call me late for lunch - gotta swallow by noon or pumpkins emerge (spell checker wants to correct dominum to dominoes, like this is some kinda game)
- or just simply the usual abrasive persona
- grin - (just a wisp of a smile)
metta
edit to add: Or did you mean without harming the cat?