How do you know if you've entered the stream?

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budo
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How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by budo »

I've been meditating since 2010 on and off, can enter the first few jhanas quite easily, and have been on a 15 day mahasi style vipassana retreat, and I still don't know if I've entered the stream. I've had moments of "blanking/blinking out" or "cessation" while meditating, and I can relate to the nanas in the 16 stages of insight. Aside from looking at the 10 fetters and making a vague guess as to which fetter I may or may not have, how do I know if I've entered the stream or attained stream entry?

I know the theory of the dhamma quite well, so asking me if I understand x theory or y theory, won't satisfy my question. So is there a significant first hand experiential indicator one can refer to in order to know they've entered the stream or is it just vague/ambiguous?

The mind is very tricky so how can one know for certain where they are?

Thank you
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retrofuturist
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Budo,

I can't speak from the point of view of the 16 vipassana nanas as that's not the schema I would use.

If you want a sutta-based perspective, I'd recommend Thanissaro Bhikku's "Into The Stream" compendium from this point on...

Metta,
Paul. :)
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DooDoot
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by DooDoot »

The mind is free from uncertainty. In stream-entry, the mind is free from uncertainty because it continuously experiences the more craving, attachment & self-thinking diminish, the more peaceful the mind becomes. Thus, the mind not only has complete confidence in what the path is but experiences a momentum of deepening peace as the mind lets go more. This is stream-entry, the mind feeling like it is flowing towards peace as the mental formations of attachment dissolve. The mind has clear experiences of lack of self in the breathing, feelings, mental states, etc, until the mind has a clear experience of selflessness overall. Belief in a real self ceases.
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Bundokji
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by Bundokji »

Are you free from suffering? If not, it simply means you still have work to do, regardless of the term you want to use to label your attainment.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

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form
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by form »

How do you know if you have become an Arahat? :mrgreen:
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Aloka
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by Aloka »

.

This short excerpt from the book "Don't Take Your Life Personally" might be helpful:

The Four Stages, by Ajahn Sumedho.

The Four Stages (stream-entry, once-return, non-return and arahant) as described in the Pali Canon are reflective teachings aimed at getting perspective on our own experience. They are not positions. It isn’t a question of thinking in terms of becoming a stream-enterer or becoming an arahant, or wondering, ‘Have I attained stream-entry yet? Am I a non-returner? Will I ever become an arahant?’ This is the worldly mind grasping the concepts.

Sometimes you hear people say, ‘This monk ― he’s a stream-enterer!’ and everyone goes ‘Ohhh! a stream-enterer!’ ‘And that one’s an arahant.’ ‘Wow, an arahant!’ (that’s like superman). But the Pali Canon refers to these Four Stages in connection with the Ten Fetters, these Ten Fetters which I have found to be a very valuable reference point in relation to the Four Stages.

The point is, it is easy to conceptualize stream-entry as some kind of attainment. The ego grasps the concept and the Western ego in particular tends to want to become what it grasps, looking upon such things as kind of achievements or goals. If you have invested many years as a monk practising meditation, you want something to prove it has been worth it, you know! ‘Give me a title. After all these years I don’t know whether I’m a stream-enterer, or not!’

It is by investigating and recognizing the first three of the Ten Fetters, however, that you come to recognize stream-entry, and stream-entry is the path.

https://buddhismnow.com/2010/10/20/the- ... n-sumedho/
:anjali:
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BasementBuddhist
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by BasementBuddhist »

How do you enter the stream of the dhamma? what is that even supposed to mean? Typically we think of stream entry as getting on the "right path" of the dhamma, of losing those first three fetters and make some real, concrete progress by god! But if you woke up breathing, decided today that you were going to look for wisdom and not ignorance, then enjoy the swim, because you are in the stream.
santa100
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by santa100 »

budo wrote:I know the theory of the dhamma quite well, so asking me if I understand x theory or y theory, won't satisfy my question. So is there a significant first hand experiential indicator one can refer to in order to know they've entered the stream or is it just vague/ambiguous?
Since you know the Dhamma quite well, you should've already read AN 9.12, AN 5.179, AN 10.92, which all point to a simple litmus test for Sotapanna, who: "fulfills virtuous behavior[the Five Precepts] but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a seventimes-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering."
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by DNS »

santa100 wrote:
budo wrote:I know the theory of the dhamma quite well, so asking me if I understand x theory or y theory, won't satisfy my question. So is there a significant first hand experiential indicator one can refer to in order to know they've entered the stream or is it just vague/ambiguous?
Since you know the Dhamma quite well, you should've already read AN 9.12, AN 5.179, AN 10.92, which all point to a simple litmus test for Sotapanna, who: "fulfills virtuous behavior[the Five Precepts] but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a seventimes-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering."
Good quote. :thumbsup: It shows that attaining sotapanna is not easy, a difficult task, however, it also shows that it is not impossible (considering how some have placed it on a par with being an arahant).
pegembara
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by pegembara »

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Garrib
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by Garrib »

pegembara wrote:At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I really like this one!
form
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by form »

It is harder than splitting a hair with a needle based on the sutta. Can anyone do that?
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mario92
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by mario92 »

I have some questions, in the book of No Ajahn Chah, verse49, ajahn said that if one believes one had attained sottappanna or any ariya state one should go and reverence that ariya. This ariya would say it is uncertain, and also the other ariyas. This made me ponder how accurate are this attainments, and regarding what oneself can been considered an ariya? Also made me question how accurate are the precepts and formulations? what are the meaning of meaningless rites and rituals?

If someone can answer my questions, Thank you.
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mario92
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by mario92 »

Nibbanna is or means disenchantment?
2600htz
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Re: How do you know if you've entered the stream?

Post by 2600htz »

budo wrote:I've been meditating since 2010 on and off, can enter the first few jhanas quite easily, and have been on a 15 day mahasi style vipassana retreat, and I still don't know if I've entered the stream. I've had moments of "blanking/blinking out" or "cessation" while meditating, and I can relate to the nanas in the 16 stages of insight. Aside from looking at the 10 fetters and making a vague guess as to which fetter I may or may not have, how do I know if I've entered the stream or attained stream entry?

I know the theory of the dhamma quite well, so asking me if I understand x theory or y theory, won't satisfy my question. So is there a significant first hand experiential indicator one can refer to in order to know they've entered the stream or is it just vague/ambiguous?

The mind is very tricky so how can one know for certain where they are?

Thank you
Hello:

Yes it might be a significal first hand experiential indicator of achieving stream-entry, but there are several interpretations depending on the tradition u are following or how u take certain words of the suttas. So its up to you and your personal merit to decide what it is.

Regards.
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