Lineage

[aag]

May I ask: what do you mean "body of the monks"?

I am also hoping to do a thesis on the concept of "lineage" in Buddhism in the future.

I was checking to see whether the word "vamsa" was indeed and accurate translation for the word "lineage," but it seems from what you are saying, that it is not. Have you been able to definitively rule out the word "vamsa" as lineage?

I think the word that you are looking for is Sanskrit: Gotra and Pali: Gotta.
(Bhikkhu Bodhi advised me that learning both Sanskrit and Pali is important even for translating exclusively Pali texts.)

Maybe check out the word "pravara" too.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/gotra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gotras
https://www.jstor.org/stable/616799
https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-sanskrit-word-KULA-mean-in-English
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-meaning-and-significance-of-Gotra
https://books.google.lk/books?id=QZhtAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=pali+word+for+gotra&source=bl&ots=vCoYsWowHX&sig=ACfU3U3_bL6KkXbRmPiqb-F25gagHVLiaQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiB-72S7LjgAhVHb30KHVs3BBcQ6AEwEnoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=pali%20word%20for%20gotra&f=false

Screen Shot 2019-02-13 at 7.21.57 PM.png (26.83 KiB) Viewed 2686 times

The Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit Literature by Har Dayal

[Dhammanando]

I was checking to see whether the word "vamsa" was indeed and accurate translation for the word "lineage," but it seem from what you are saying, it is not.

If we're talking about the ordination lineages of bhikkhus and bhikkhunīs, the relevant term is paramparā, which in its approved Vinaya sense (as opposed to its disapproved Sutta sense) first appears in the Parivāra.

[aag]

I was checking to see whether the word "vamsa" was indeed and accurate translation for the word "lineage," but it seem from what you are saying, it is not.

If we're talking about the ordination lineages of bhikkhus and bhikkhunīs, the relevant term is paramparā, which in its approved Vinaya sense (as opposed to its disapproved Sutta sense) first appears in the Parivāra.

What word would be appropriate/suitable if we are talking about the "lineage of Buddhas"?

[Dhammanando]

What word would be appropriate/suitable if we are talking about the "lineage of Buddhas"?

Vaṃsa is used for this. A less common term is paveṇi.

[aag]

What word would be appropriate/suitable if we are talking about the "lineage of Buddhas"?

Vaṃsa is used for this. A less common term is paveṇi.

I know that "vaṃsa" is used in the title of Buddhavaṃsa - a later addition to the canon.

Is this term also used within the Nikayas as well, such as in "DN14 Mahâpadāna Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lineage"? What word for lineage, if any, is used in the Nikayas?

Also, is there a Sanskrit equivalent? Often, the Buddha would define a term that was already popular in North India at the time. I thought that perhaps the Buddha may have redefined the Brahmin term "gotra"? But this was just a guess as I do not have evidence or any knowledge if this so or not.

[paul]

the concept of "lineage" in Buddhism

In Theravada:
"Wander, monks, in what is your proper range, your own ancestral territory. In one who wanders in what is his proper range, his own ancestral territory, Mara gains no opening, Mara gains no foothold. And what, for a monk, is his proper range, his own ancestral territory? The four frames of reference." SN 47.7, Thanissaro

[aag]

the concept of "lineage" in Buddhism

own ancestral territory.

Is this word the same or similar to lineage? Do you know the Sanskrit/Pali Pali words for these?

[paul]

You will need to consult others about the Pali. My point is not linguistic, but doctrinal. When Hindu customs become Theravada they undergo a radical change, in this case ancestry is a tradition of mindfulness, the sphere becomes the mind. The Buddha adapted previously held customs to suit his own pedagogical purpose.

[aag]

You will need to consult others about the Pali. My point is not linguistic, but doctrinal. When Hindu customs become Theravada they undergo a radical change, in this case ancestry is a tradition of mindfulness, the sphere becomes the mind. The Buddha adapted previously held customs to suit his own pedagogical purpose.

Oh ok - the reason I was wondering if the word was the same in that case is because I was wondering it is still referring to the concept of lineage which has been adapted.

It's not clear to me if ancestral haunts is talking about re-adapting "lineage" per se, pastures and haunts suggest a "place" where the ancestors (adapted: mind) could roam. I'm not sure what the equivalent of that would be in terms of Hindu customs. If this is also referring to the concept of lineage, I guess it would still be helpful to keep this in mind for future reference, so thank you for that.

I was hoping to figure out what the Sanskrit and Pali word for the English word "lineage" would be as related to the "lineage of Buddhas" specifically as found in the early texts/nikayas, etc. (That is why earlier I was asking if Vamsa could be found in the nikayas or just in the later texts, and also why I was asking you what the Sanskrit/Pali word was in the context that you mentioned.)

[Dhammanando]

Is this word the same or similar to lineage? Do you know the Sanskrit/Pali Pali words for these?

Gocara. Its opposite is agocara. They are sometimes translated as "one's own pastures" (= the four satipaṭṭhānas) and "foreign pastures" (= five kāmaguṇas).

[Dhammanando]

Is this term also used within the Nikayas as well, such as in "DN14 Mahâpadāna Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lineage"?

I wouldn't myself translate the apadāna in Mahāpadāna as "lineage". An explanatory rendering would be something like "trans-saṃsāric spiritual career". That is, the interval from the moment a being has a life-changing encounter with a Buddha until the moment s/he arrives at either arahantship, solitary buddhahood or perfect buddhahood, is that being's apadāna.

[Pulsar]

Thanks Paul, you wrote In Theravada:
"Wander, monks, in what is your proper range, your own ancestral territory. In one who wanders in what is his proper range, his own ancestral territory, Mara gains no opening, Mara gains no foothold. And what, for a monk, is his proper range, his own ancestral territory? The four frames of reference." SN 47.7, Thanissaro
what a fascinating teaching, I try to memorize this, and do accordingly, but efforts fail, and I try to regain, my lost footing
as long as we allow feelings, recognitions, forces of sankharas to arise incessantly, (abhisankharoti)
unmindfully, we are in bed with mara...
the fault is entirely in our own lack of effort, lack of iddipada,
and of course the seven sets are embedded in
the four frames of reference...
Thanks Ven. Dhammannando and everyone else on the thread, My Saturday
is enriched by this discussion

[aag]

Is this term also used within the Nikayas as well, such as in "DN14 Mahâpadāna Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lineage"?

I wouldn't myself translate the apadāna in Mahāpadāna as "lineage". An explanatory rendering would be something like "trans-saṃsāric spiritual career". That is, the interval from the moment a being has a life-changing encounter with a Buddha until the moment s/he arrives at either arahantship, solitary buddhahood or perfect buddhahood, is that being's apadāna.

Thank you for the clarification Ven. Dhammanando.

Do you know of any word that is used to refer directly to the "lineage" of seven Buddhas in the Nikayas (as opposed to the to the lineage of 28 Buddhas mentioned in the Buddhavamsa - which in this case, clearly seems to be "Vamsa")? In other words, is vamsa used in the Nikayas as well to refer to the lineage of seven Buddhas?

[Dhammanando]

Do you know of any word that is used to refer directly to the "lineage" of seven Buddhas in the Nikayas

I'm not aware of them ever being referred to by a term that means "lineage". Usually they're just called "the seven Buddhas of this auspicious aeon" or something of that sort.

(as opposed to the to the lineage of 28 Buddhas mentioned in the Buddhavamsa - which in this case, clearly seems to be "Vamsa")? In other words, is vamsa used in the Nikayas as well to refer to the lineage of seven Buddhas?

My impression is that the vaṃsa in Buddhavaṃsa doesn't actually mean "lineage". Rather, it seems to mean about the same as "apadāna" as I described it in my earlier post. In the Buddhavaṃsa Pāli, each of the Buddhas has his own buddhavaṃsa, which isn't a lineage but rather is an apadāna-like summation of the decisive events in his spiritual career.

[aag]

Do you know of any word that is used to refer directly to the "lineage" of seven Buddhas in the Nikayas

I'm not aware of them ever being referred to by a term that means "lineage". Usually they're just called "the seven Buddhas of this auspicious aeon" or something of that sort.

(as opposed to the to the lineage of 28 Buddhas mentioned in the Buddhavamsa - which in this case, clearly seems to be "Vamsa")? In other words, is vamsa used in the Nikayas as well to refer to the lineage of seven Buddhas?

My impression is that the vaṃsa in Buddhavaṃsa doesn't actually mean "lineage". Rather, it seems to mean about the same as "apadāna" as I described it in my earlier post. In the Buddhavaṃsa Pāli, each of the Buddhas has his own buddhavaṃsa, which isn't a lineage but rather is an apadāna-like summation of the decisive events in his spiritual career.

Thank you very much for that explanation. That seems to help clarify things for me quite a bit!

Regarding: "Usually they're just called "the seven Buddhas of this auspicious aeon" or something of that sort."

Are the seven Buddhas ever sort of collectively referred to as a set with a certain term? Like perhaps a one-word term to refer to the set of seven Buddhas?

Thanks again, Ven. Dhammanando!