Dhammanando wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:19 am
Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:14 am
Is he really going to be able to answer this question, though, bhante?
I don't know. My hope —and it's only the very faintest of hopes— is that the questions might spur him and his partners in crime to read up on the subject of word-formation in different types of language and then come to realise the absurdity and untenability of what Waharakaists do with Pali words.
I have explained this in detail.
"What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)
", Jan 09, 2019 (p. 59): [html]viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=870
- Discussion Jan 10, 2019 (p. 59) to p. 60.
As I explained in the discussion, one really needs to understand what is meant by sankhara, vinnana, etc.
- This is why keep pointing out the VERY CLEAR inconsistencies in your (and others at Sutta Central) explanations.
- Instead of trying to win an argument like a lawyer, try to understand the key message of the Buddha.
- Can you point out anything wrong with the explanations given in that post?
Following is a post from puredhamma.net with many other Pali words with the root "san". If anyone is truly interested in LEARNING and not just DEBATE for the sake of debate, one should be able to see that these do make sense.
- Can you also point out anything wrong with the explanations given below?
- Please do not try to use Sanskrit texts, which the Buddha specifically banned. You are breaking a Vinaya rule, as I explained in a post on p. 24 on August 26, 2018 (p. 24)
List of “San” Words and Other Pāli Roots
1. Pāli is a phonetic language. It does not have its own alphabet. Tipitaka was originally written down in Pāli with the Sinhala alphabet.
Pāli verses are composed for ease of oral transmission. Tipitaka was orally transmitted faithfully for several hundred years.
So, in many cases, root words are hidden in combined words in verses that were composed to rhyme better for easy oral transmission.
2. Rather than trying to find roots in Sanskrit, that is the way to find the roots. As I explained with evidence from the Tipitaka, the Buddha prohibited the use of Sanskrit words, or even to translate the Tipitaka to Sanskrit; see, “Preservation of the Dhamma“.
That is because despite some similarities, Sanskrit many words were composed to sound more “impressive”, without paying attention to embedded meanings.
For example, Pratītyasamutpāda is the Sanskrit term for Paticca Samuppāda. Pratītyasamutpāda sounds impressive but the meaning is not clear at all.
On the other hand, it is clear in pati + icca leading to sama + uppāda; see, “Paticca Samuppāda – “Pati+ichcha”+”Sama+uppāda“.
3. Pali words are combined in ways to rhyme better. By finding key root-words embedded in such “combined words”, one can easily figure out the meaning.
“yadaniccam tam dukkham, yam dukkham tadanattā
” verse appears in many suttas.
In order to understand it, we need to “expand it” or “unfold it”: “yad aniccam tam dukkham, yam dukkham tad anattā
Now the meaning becomes clear: “anicca nature leads to dukkha, dukkha nature leads to anatta nature”; see, “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – Wrong Interpretations“.
4. The following are some examples of combination of words to make a verse rhyme better for oral transmission.
Naidham = na idham or “not the case”.
Ayamantimā jāti = ayam +antima + jāti or “my last birth”.
Nūppajjati = na + uppajjati: “will not arise”.
Cittappasāda = citta + pasāda; note the two p’s in the combined word that allow it to rhyme better.
Similarly in: Rupakkhandha = rupa khandha: “rupa aggregate”.
Aveccappasāda = ava icca pasāda or “faith that leads to overcoming tanhā (attachment)”.
Buddha = bhava + uddha: one who figured out how to stop existences (bhava) from arising.
Bhavanga = bhava + anga; intrinsic aspect of bhava.
Sakkāya = sath + kāya: good collections usually referring to the five aggregates. Sakkāya ditthi is the view that the five aggregates should be embraced.
Anāpāna = āna + āpāna: “taking in” and “putting out”.
Note the pronunciation of the following words sort of backwards to rhyme better:
Anāgāmi = na āgāmi: not coming back (in reference to not to come back to kāma lōka for a person who has attained the Anāgāmi stage of Nibbāna.
Anatimāna = na + atimāna: atimāna is “high-mindedness” and anatimāna is opposite or “humble”.
5. Just by knowing what is meant by the root “san“, many Pāli words can be understood easily; see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansara (or Samsara)“.
Note that some words are written and pronounced with emphasis on “m” rather than “n”, because it rhymes better that way; a good example is samsāra (sansāra) which can be written and pronounced either way.
On the other hand, sammā comes from “san” + “mā“, but always pronounced as “sammā“, because it rhymes easier that way; eg., sammā ditthi, sammā sankappa, etc.
It must be kept in mind that “san” has various levels. First one needs to remove ‘san‘ that lead to immoral activities that can lead to births in the apāyās; after one becomes a Sōtapanna, one should strive to eliminate “san” involving sense pleasures; after becoming an Anāgāmi, the goal is to remove “san” associated with rupa and arupa jhāna. I only stated “sense pleasures” in the Table.
6. I plan to add another table for Pāli words with a few more key “roots”.
Pāli Words with “San” Root
Sammā san + mā mā means to "remove" associated with removing "san"
sammāpaṭipatti san + mā +patipatti patipatti is a process method or effort to remove "san"
sammāvimutti san + mā + vimutti vimutti is complete release Arahant phala; Nibbana
Sammanti san + mā like gaccā to gaccanti attaining peacefulness by removing "san"
samantanō san + anta; rhymes like samananta anta is end a process that gets rid of "san"
Sammā ditthi Sammā + ditthi ditthi is vision (here to see Tilakkhana) clear vision to see danger of (and how to remove) "san"
Sammā sankappa Sammā + sankappa sankappa are conscious/unconscious thoughts thoughts to removing "san"
Sammā vācā Sammā + vācā vācā is conscious thoughts/speech speech to remove "san"
Sammā kammanta Sammā + kammanta kammanta is actions bodily actions to remove "san"
Sammā ajīva Sammā + ajīva ajīva is way one lives living style to remove "san"
Sammā vāyāma Sammā + vāyāma vāyāma is effort effort to remove "san"
Sammā sati Sammā + sati sati is mindfulness (about Tilakkhana) mindfulness to remove "san"
Sammā samādhi Sammā + samādhi samādhi is the state of equanimity (sama + adhi) state of samādhi resulting from removing "san"
Sambhava san + bhava bhava is existence existence due to "san"
Sambuddha san + bhava + uddha uddha is rooting out one who rooted out existence in 31 realms
Sambōdhi state attained by a sambuddha; Nibbana
Sambhūta san + bhūta bhūta refers to satara maha bhūta creation of bhūta via "san" in the mind; The Origin of Matter – Suddhashtaka
Sammapañña samma + pañña pañña is wisdom wisdom to see the way to remove "san"
(Samma-Sambuddha) Emphasizing the achievement of sambodhi on one's own reserved for the Buddhas
Sammatta san+mā+atta atta means the "truths leading to samma" Sammatta niyama is a knowledge of a Sotapanna.
Sambojjanga san +bodhi+anga; rhymes as sambojjanga "anga" means factors Factors that lead to Sambodhi
(Sampajanna) san + pajāna pajāna is to comprehend to figure out defilements (san)
sammappadhāna san + mā+ padhāna mā is to remove; padhāna means "first" first to do to remove "san"
Sambandha san + bandha bandha is to bind, associate with bind with someone/something with "san"
sambhāvitā san + bhāvitā bhāvitā is to use engage in "san" or sense pleasures
Sambhēda san + bhēda bhēda means to quarrel fighting over pleasurable things or "san"
Sambhīta san + bhīta bhīta means to terrify "san" leading to terror (in mind or in future births)
Sambhōga san + bhōga bhōga means pleasurable things, especially food sense pleasures
Sambhunjati san + bhunja bhunja means to eat or consume engage in sense pleasures
sammoha san + moha moha is delusion extreme delusion
sampādesi / sampādeta san + pādēsi pādēsi is to sort out and see to clarify what is "san", as in "vaya dhammā sankhāra, appamādēna sampādēta".
sampahansēti san +pahāna pahāna is to remove to remove "san"
sampaññō san + paññō paññō means with wisdom, possessive of paññā attained wisdom to see 'san"
Sampajāna san + pajāna pajāna is to clarify sort out or to clarify "san"
sampayōga san + payōga payōga is a clever plan to get something done plan to access a pleasurable thing
Samphassa san + phassa contact with san (in the mind) Vedana (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways
Sampassati san + passati passati means to comprehend comprehend "san'
sankiliṭṭha or saṃkiliṭṭha san + kilittha kilittha is to defile making mind defiled by adding "san"
sankilesa or saṃkilesa san + kilesa kilesa are defilements things that defile the mind
Samsāra (Sansāra) san + sāra sāra means "good" perception that san (things in this world) are good.
(Samsēva) san + sēva sēva means to "associate" to indulge in worldly pleasures
(as in samuccēda pahāna) san + uccēda uccēda means to "remove from the roots"; pahāna is remove samuccēda pahāna means to "get rid of permanently"
saṃyōga or sanyōga san + yōga yōga is to bind bound with "san" (to this world)
saṃyōjanā or sanyōjanā san + yō +ja "yo' is to bind; "ja" is to produce factors that leads to bonds to rebirth process
samudaya san + udaya udaya is to arise arising due to "san"
Samutthāna san + utthāna utthāna means "where it arises" Samutthāna citta is same as cittaja; where "san" originates (mind)
samvāsa or sanvāsa san + vāsa vāsa live with live together; sexual intercourse
Samvara (Sanvara) san + vara vara means to stop, avoid moral behavior
Samvaddha san + vaddha vaddha is to "grow" to add "san", i.e., defilements
Samvannanā san + vannanā vannanā is to praise to praise immoral acts
(Samvattati) san + vattana vattana is to "drop" aiding in removing "san"
samvēdanā or sanvēdanā san + vēdanā vēdanā is to feel feelings due to "san": samphassa jā vēdanā
saṃvidhāna or sanvidhāna san + vidhāna vidhāna means ordering giving orders, organize (normally used mundanely)
saṃsaraṇa or sansaraṇa san + sarana sarana means move around, travel wandering in samsara
(as in Samyutta Nikāya) san + yutta yutta means "contains" Suttas in the Samyutta Nikāya explain "san" terms
Sancetanā san + cetanā cetanā is intention (in a thought) defiled thoughts
sanditthika san + ditthi ditthi is seeing, vision seeing "san" with Buddha Dhamma
Sangāyanā san + gāyanā gāyanā is to recite Buddhist Council where suttas describing "san" are recited.
Sanga san + ga ga is to attach, attach to "san"
Sangati san + gati gati is character, habit bad character/habits
Sangha san + gha gha is to remove Those who have removed "san" belong to Sanhga; Nobles or Ariyas, but usu. include bhikkhus
Sāṅghika possessive of Sangha offered to Sangha
Sangīta (Sangeetha) san + gīta gīta is a poem, song music that bend mind towards sense pleasures
sankalpana or sankappa san + kalpana kalpnana means conscious thoughts defiled thoughts
sankhitta san + kitta kitta is action (kriya) anything done with 'san' (defilements) in mind
Sansun san + sûn (û rhymes like put) sûn means to destroy calming the mind via removing "san"
Sanvara san + vara vara is to stay away from discipline via staying away from "san", i.e., moral behavior
sanvēga or samvēga san + vēga vēga is speed or rapidity enhanced javana of a citta due to "san", i.e., highly emotional
sankhāra san + kāra kāra is action (all actions are initiated via thoughts) Sankhara – What It Really Means
Sankata san + kata kata is a result produced via sankhāra; anything in this world
Sansāra (Samsāra) San + Sāra Sāra is good, beneficial What is “San”? Meaning of Sansara (or Samsara)
Santāpa san + tāpa tāpa is heat heating of the mind due to "san"
Santutti (or Santhutti) san + thutti thutti is to remove: Arogya Parama Labha.. ease of mind when "san" removed; but commonly used to indicate happiness
As anyone with the desire to LEARN can see, these explanations make good sense, and are totally consistent with the Tipitaka.
- You can never win arguments by going AGAINST the foundations of Buddha Dhamma.
- As you have admitted, "vinnana nirodha" is indeed Nibbana. I am sure you and others will come around on other issues in due time.
I just listened to 30 minutes of the desana by Ven. Abhaya posted by Saoshun above.
One can understand the FUNDAMENTALS of Buddha dhamma from this desana than by reading hundreds of incorrectly translated deep suttas.
I highly recommend listening to that desana.