Theravada against mathematics

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Germann
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Sola Scriptura

Post by Germann »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:58 pm Germann
https://www.academia.edu/5212434/The_Ea ... e_in_India

The first texts in the literary Pali (the language that is known from the Pali Canon) appeared after the life of Nagarjuna.
Alternative opinions are refuted by the lack of epigraphy.

Accordingly, the whole Pali philosophy arose later than the philosophy of Nagarjuna.
Nagarjuna is closer in time to the record of Agamas and Suttas.

The suttas themselves are usually dated before the Mahayana sutras. Nagarjuna refers to the suttas himself.
In the Mahayana there are Agamas and Abhidharmakosha containing the same teachings. And since there is no Sola Scriptura principle, proper understanding of the Doctrine is more important than specific books.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Ceisiwr »

Germann
In the Mahayana there are Agamas and Abhidharmakosha containing the same teachings.

Yes, the Agamas being the chinese version of the pali suttas. Still, most historians agree that the Mahayna sutras came later.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sola Scriptura

Post by Ceisiwr »

Germann

And since there is no Sola Scriptura principle, proper understanding of the Doctrine is more important than specific books.
True, but I prefer to get as close to the original source as possible.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:07 pm Germann
In the Mahayana there are Agamas and Abhidharmakosha containing the same teachings.

Yes, the Agamas being the chinese version of the pali suttas. Still, most historians agree that the Mahayna sutras came later.
The Mahayana sutras correctly represent the ideas of the early texts (if Buddha could not be mistaken), so that Mahayana did not come to mathematical contradictions. The Buddha’s teaching (if Buddha possessed perfect wisdom) cannot contradict mathematics.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Ceisiwr »

Germann wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:11 pm
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:07 pm Germann
In the Mahayana there are Agamas and Abhidharmakosha containing the same teachings.

Yes, the Agamas being the chinese version of the pali suttas. Still, most historians agree that the Mahayna sutras came later.
The Mahayana sutras correctly represent the ideas of the early texts (if Buddha could not be mistaken), so that Mahayana did not come to mathematical contradictions. The Buddha’s teaching (if Buddha possessed perfect wisdom) cannot contradict mathematics.

So they are later additions then :smile:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Pseudobabble
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Re: The countable set of all possible lives

Post by Pseudobabble »

Germann wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Pseudobabble wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:22 pm
Germann wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:36 am
In ancient India, the loser dispute became the pupil of the winner. Whoever this winner is.

You will not do anything with the mathematical fact that the countable set of all possible sequences of combinations of dhammas (the countable set of all possible lives) fit in an infinite set of moments of the past. It does not matter if there are random events or there are no random events.

http://mymathforum.com/number-theory/34 ... ments.html

A countable set is the "smallest" among infinite sets.
Well, then its a pity we aren’t in ancient India, and that you haven’t won anything. A pity for you, that is.
It seems to you.
Mathematically, I have everything correctly, and I want as many mathematicians as possible to participate in the discussion.
Then you might be better off on a mathematical forum, since you're making a mathematical point. This topic only coincidentally related to Theravada.
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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann »

The Pali Abhidhamma is precisely how the Sutta were interpreted in Theravada school before they became acquainted with the Tibetan and Far Eastern Mahayana. The Pali Abhidhamma is exactly that which was mastered in bhavana. If the Pali Abhidhamma is wrong, then the whole school is wrong, and its meditative practices (not the accumulation of merit by offerings, etc.) could not be effective.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Ceisiwr »

Germann wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:47 pm The Pali Abhidhamma is precisely how the Sutta were interpreted in Theravada school before they became acquainted with the Tibetan and Far Eastern Mahayana. The Pali Abhidhamma is exactly that which was mastered in bhavana. If the Pali Abhidhamma is wrong, then the whole school is wrong, and its meditative practices (not the accumulation of merit by offerings, etc.) could not be effective.
That doesn’t follow.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Dan74-MkII
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Dan74-MkII »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:06 pm
Germann wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:47 pm The Pali Abhidhamma is precisely how the Sutta were interpreted in Theravada school before they became acquainted with the Tibetan and Far Eastern Mahayana. The Pali Abhidhamma is exactly that which was mastered in bhavana. If the Pali Abhidhamma is wrong, then the whole school is wrong, and its meditative practices (not the accumulation of merit by offerings, etc.) could not be effective.
That doesn’t follow.
No, it doesn't. Nor does the maths, incidentally.
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Sherab
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Sherab »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:52 pm Nibbana, being outside this set of parameters, hasn't happened for all beings.
That was my primary argument against Germann's proposition. Basically, my argument was that Nibbana is unconditioned. Being unconditioned, it can never be a member of the infinite set of all casually chained events.
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Sherab
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Re:

Post by Sherab »

Germann wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:49 pm
Sherab wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:05 pm
Germann wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:21 am
If we attribute the free choice to a separate, conditioned dhamma, making it a subject, then regardless of the moral choice, the fate of all the subjects is the same — the termination. There is no kammic reward for dhammas.
I was answering this part of your post: "If, however, we consider liberation (Nibbana) a simple cessation, any subject, regardless of his moral path, reaches Nibbana by death."

As regards free choice, I don't think there is such a thing. There is choice, but there is no free choice. Choice makes sense only in relation to sentient beings but not the Buddha.
If there is no free choice, then all events are either random or deterministic. If there are random events, the entire Path to Nibbana should be already “printed” for an endless past (the title post). If there are no random events, then all events are totally deterministic. Deterministic algorithm, whose steps have already been carried out in the infinite past. If Nibbana is possible, all steps towards it must be realized for an infinite past. If Nibbana is impossible, the algorithm infinitely repeats the events of samsara, there is no way out of samsara.
Like I mentioned before, Nibbana being unconditioned, can never be a member of the infinite set of casually-chained events.
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Sherab
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Re:

Post by Sherab »

Germann wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:49 pm
Sherab wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:05 pm
Germann wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:21 am
If we attribute the free choice to a separate, conditioned dhamma, making it a subject, then regardless of the moral choice, the fate of all the subjects is the same — the termination. There is no kammic reward for dhammas.
I was answering this part of your post: "If, however, we consider liberation (Nibbana) a simple cessation, any subject, regardless of his moral path, reaches Nibbana by death."

As regards free choice, I don't think there is such a thing. There is choice, but there is no free choice. Choice makes sense only in relation to sentient beings but not the Buddha.
If there is no free choice, then all events are either random or deterministic. If there are random events, the entire Path to Nibbana should be already “printed” for an endless past (the title post). If there are no random events, then all events are totally deterministic. Deterministic algorithm, whose steps have already been carried out in the infinite past. If Nibbana is possible, all steps towards it must be realized for an infinite past. If Nibbana is impossible, the algorithm infinitely repeats the events of samsara, there is no way out of samsara.
I hold that the choices of a sentient being are always subjected to causes and conditioned. That choice only makes sense because sentient beings are not omniscient. As a Buddha is omniscient, he does not need to make choices. His acts will be spontaneous.

As for Nibbana, it being unconditioned can never be a member of the infinite set of casually-chained events.
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Pondera
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

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Cyclical existence does not have an infinite past. During expansion, space-time arises. During contraction, space-time ceases. During contraction, “most” beings are born in a certain heaven. Implying that within the scope of an infinite number of beings - the actual mechanism of cyclical existence places beings in a heaven (during the contraction of the cosmos). After expansion, they’re free to pursue whatever desire they have for the next period of expansion. Depending on what kind of kamma they cultivate; they may arrive at Buddhahood over the course of countless eons. But kamma is generated and exhausted - so there isn’t an infinite amount of kamma generated to attain Buddhahood here either. All of your math ignores the cosmology of the Buddha. There is no “infinite past”. There are cycles of space-time-matter expansion and contraction + beings who inhabit various realms depending on their kamma (kamma which arises and ceases also).
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Pondera »

In addition - the 31 planes of existence have the immaterial sphere - the fine material sphere - the sensual sphere - and the sphere of deprivation. Beings wander from sphere to sphere according to their kamma.

Even the Buddha admitted that he had travelled to almost all of these spheres. However - and I believe it is the “Pure Abodes” he refers to when saying that if he had appeared there, he would never have taken human form later and become a Buddha.

The entire Soteriological frame work of good and bad kamma, the 31 planes of existence, the limited paths one can take in limited life times and the outcomes of those paths, etc. - all of this negates your theoretical mathematics. The path to Nibbana depends on hearing the dhamma. Hearing the dhamma depends on there being a Buddha. There being a Buddha means the right cultivation of the right kamma. The fact that it is possible but rare excludes all sentient beings from following that path. Some are in Hell and can’t practice. Some are in heaven and can’t practice. Some are human but don’t encounter the dhamma or a Buddha. Theoretically, it may be possible that all beings may some day reach Nibbāna- but factually it is happening in spurts. The last one was here on earth 2500 years ago. That is the factual nature of the dhamma and Nibbana. But please, do go on with your theorization - I’m sure it pleases you a great deal.
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Pondera
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Pondera »

And on and on ...

There are an infinite number of paths leading to 31 planes of existence and 1 unconditioned element. And you take the one path leading to the unconditioned element, give it a non-zero probability - then go on to say all beings would have realized this non-zero probability.

I don’t think so. There are many other paths, many other spheres of being, and many other non-zero probabilities leading to those spheres or planes of existence.

The statistical distribution of beings in these each of these 31 planes of existence is proportional to the number of paths leading to said plane and the probability of any single being following said path.

The fact that we are not all enlightened speaks to the fact that there are an infinite number of paths to follow through Samsara.

The fact that “most” beings are born in the realm of Radiance at the end of the world cycle speaks to the fact that most beings follow the same path and that there is a particularity high probability of ending up there at the end of each cycle.

So, the fact that you arbitrarily ignore all of the other statistical probabilities of the infinite paths in Samsara - with a preference for the very rare incidence of the deathless element is kind of a naive assumption.

Okay. Maybe I’m done now. I hope so.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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