polo wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 9:04 am
budo wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 5:55 am
It already is. There are many Theravadan monks that have wrong views. You don't have to look far into Mahayana to see wrong views, there are wrong views espoused by many Theravadan monks.
And the relevant sutta:
“Monks, possessing five qualities, an elder monk is
acting for the harm of many people, for the unhappiness of
many people, for the ruin, the harm, the suffering of many
people, of devas and of humans. What five?
I. An elder is of long standing and has long gone forth.
II. He is well known and famous, and has a following of
many people, including lay persons and monastics.
III. He gains robes, alms food, lodging, and medical care.
IV. He has learned much, remembers what he has learned,
and accumulates what he has learned …
V. He holds wrong views and has a distorted perspective.
AN 5.88
Just the other day I was listening to a dhamma talk by a respected monk and he said the Buddha is always in first jhana no matter what. I shook my head and disqualified that teacher.
And also polo, vipassana movement is also wrong view.
Budo, please don't say "vipassana movement is also wrong view" it helped me to get back from the edge of insanity. I was having hell lot of neurosis problems I thought I was going insane until I look into Vipassana and understood the origin of the problems which immediately lightened the burdens I was carrying and later stage got it off my back completely. It cannot possibly be wrong as far as I am concerned. May be it is for you perhaps because you made some mistakes along the way.
Would you be kind enough to enlighten me on what you said, i.e. wrong view. I really must get to the bottom of these two words.
Dear polo,
Vipassana movement is still better than a lot of other false Buddhisms, but it is still not right view. Would you accept a bowl of food with pieces of hair in it? Maybe if you had to choose between that bowl of food and eating cow dung, so vipassana movement is still better than cow dung, but it is still not right view.
And let me explain to you why Vipassana movement is wrong view.
First, there are monks within the vipassana movement that say you do not need jhana all the way to arahantship, but this isn't what the suttas say. The suttas say a non-returner has perfection of concentration (4 jhanas), and even a once-returner has attained jhanas. Perhaps only a stream enterer does not require all four jhanas, but still jhanas are required
The Buddha says a stream-enterer who does not attain jhanas lives negilently. And that samadhi is needed to understand the dhamma.
“And how does a noble disciple live negligently? Firstly, a noble disciple has experiential confidence in the Buddha … They’re content with that confidence, and don’t make a further effort for solitude by day or retreat by night. When they live negligently, there’s no joy. When there’s no joy, there’s no rapture. When there’s no rapture, there’s no tranquility. When there’s no tranquility, there’s suffering. When one is suffering, the mind does not become immersed in samādhi. When the mind is not immersed in samādhi, principles do not become clear. Because principles have not become clear, they’re reckoned to live negligently.
- SN 55.40
And furthermore, a foolish monk does satipatthana but does not attain jhana
“So too, monks, here some foolish, incompetent, unskillful monk dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and grief in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating the body in the body, his mind does not become concentrated, his corruptions (i.e. hindrances) are not abandoned, he does not pick up that sign. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... Dhamma in Dhamma ... he does not pick up that sign. That foolish, incompetent, unskillful monk, does not gain pleasant dwellings in this very life, nor does he gain mindfulness and clear awareness. For what reason? Because, monks, that foolish, incompetent, unskillful monk does not pick up the sign of his own mind. ...So too, monks, here some wise, competent, skillful monk dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and grief in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating the body in the body, his mind becomes concentrated, his corruptions are abandoned, he picks up that sign. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... Dhamma in Dhamma ... he picks up that sign. That wise, competent, skillful monk gains pleasant dwellings in this very life, and he gains mindfulness and clear awareness. For what reason? Because, monks, that wise, competent, skillful monk picks up the sign of his own mind.”
- SN 47.8
Furthermore, in the vipasssana movement there are monks that teach satipatthana without a single object, without unificiation of mind, which as the sutta above shows, is foolish, because one cannot attain jhanas without singleness of object and one pointedness. Instead they teach momentary concentration which goes against the suttas.
“Unification of mind, friend Visakha, is concentration; the four satipatthana are the basis of concentration; the four right kinds of striving are the accessories of concentration; the repetition, development, and cultivation of these same states is the development of concentration therein.”
-MN 44
MN 125 shows the purpose of satipatthana is to attain jhanas
“Having thus abandoned the five hindrances, corruptions of the mind that weaken wisdom, he abides contemplating the body in the body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief in regard to the world. He abides contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... Dhamma in Dhamma
... Then the Tathagatha disciplines him further: ‘Come, monk, abide contemplating the body in the body, but do not think thoughts of sensual desire. Abide contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... Dhamma in Dhamma ...’With the stilling of thought directed and thought sustained, he enters upon and abides in the second jhana ... third jhana ... fourth jhana. ”
The Buddha only praised Jhana meditation, samadhi, not 'vipassana meditation", vipassana means contemplation of dhamma, not meditation.
“The Blessed One, brahmin, did not praise every type of meditation, nor did he condemn every type of meditation. What kind of meditation did the Blessed one not praise? Here, brahmin, someone abides with his mind obsessed by sensual lust, a prey to sensual lust, and he does notunderstand as it actually is the escape from arisen sensual lust. While he harbours sensual lust within, he meditates, pre-meditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. He abides with his mind obsessed by ill will, a prey to ill will...with his mind obsessed by sloth and torpor, a prey to sloth and torpor...with his mind obsessed by restlessness and remorse, a prey to restlessness and remorse...with his mind obsessed by doubt, a prey to doubt, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen doubt. While he harbours doubt within, he meditates, pre-meditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. The Blessed One did not praise that kind of meditation.
And what kind of meditation did the Blessed One praise? Here, brahmin quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states, a monk enters upon and abides in the first jhana... With the stilling of thought directed and sustained, he enters upon and abides in the second jhana...With the fading away as well of delight...he enters upon and abides in the third jhana...With the abandoning of pleasure and pain...he enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana...The Blessed One praised that kind of meditation.”
MN 108
Furthermore, there are suttas where the Buddha gives examples of proper meditation like the sutta on focusing on a bowl on your head (single objectness) while someone walks behind you with a sword, if you drop some oil, you will lose your head. Or the suttas of 6 animals representing the 6 senses, tied to a post (one object).
Therefore momentary concentration is wrong because it is not single objectness, it is not one pointedness, it does not lead to jhanas, and as the sutta says, it is foolish because it is satipathana without concentration, without jhanas.
And lastly, the fourth jhana is considered
purity of mindfulness.
And I have a lot more suttas to back up jhanas, but this is enough for now. I also have suttas that show what is really the awakening factor of mindfulness.
If you want to attain right view, read the suttas!