How to walk the Buddha's path: suttas and practice

[starter]

Hi friends,

I'd appreciate your input on my understanding of the step by step gradual training laid out by the Buddha (SN45.1, MN 39, MN 125):

1) Obtain right right view: first mundane right view (the law of kamma), then supramundane right view (the four noble truths) (MN 117, MN 9);

2) Cultivate right intention/thoughts: resolve on non-sensual desire, non-ill will, harmlessness; make such thinking become the inclination of the mind (MN 19; The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi);

3) Establish conscience/prudence about bad bodily/verbal/mental conduct and unwholesome qualities as well as fear of their consequences, seeing danger in the slightest fault; understand the rewards of sila (AN 4.111, AN 8.7, AN 8.39-40, AN 10.1-3, AN 11.12, DN 16, T 212.14);

4) Purify the three fold conduct and livelihood (MN 41, DN2, DN 31, AN 8.41): by practicing mundane right view, right attention (MN 2), and repeated reflection/examination (MN 61, MN 114, AN 5.57, AN 11.12); obtain noble contentment (MN 27);

5) Understand the danger/degradation of sensual desire and rewards of renunciation; establish sense restraint, moderation in eating, and wakefulness/vigilance (MN 38, MN 45, MN 54, MN 62, MN 75, SN 35.115, SN 35.199, SN 35.203; AN 4.2; MN 114),

6) Establish mindfulness and clear comprehension (MN 125, AN 10-Nagaropamasutta, SN Rohitassavaggo, Samādhibhāvana Sutta);

7) Overcome five hindrances (AN 1.11-20; AN 10.51);

8) Contemplate the four domains of mindfulness -- body/feeling/mind/Dhammas (MN 125, MN 10);

9) Obtain right concentration -- the four Jhanas equipped with right view, right resolve/thoughts, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness (DN2, MN 44, MN 117).

Helpful suttas & practice-centered writings and correction of my mistakes would be highly appreciated. May all of us succeed in finding and walking the path. Metta to all,

Starter

[JamesTheGiant]

That seems... complicated. How would you translate that that into practical life?

[dhammapal]

Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
From: Udāna 5.3: The Leper translated from the Pāli by Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu

I got the link to the above sutta from Access to Insight's Dhamma: A Gradual Training in "A Path to Freedom, a Self-guided Tour of the Buddha's Teachings."

[Zom]

I'd appreciate your input on my understanding of the step by step gradual training laid out by the Buddha (SN45.1, MN 39, MN 125):

Topic is quite important, I wrote about it a couple of years ago:
viewtopic.php?t=23716

[budo]

To OP and others who have questions like this:

That seems... complicated. How would you translate that that into practical life?

The gradual training refers to results, not to practice. The practice is always the same. The practice is:

Read suttas and exercise appropriate attention (satipatthana off cushion, attain jhanas on cushion).

Anyone who tells you not to read suttas, or not to meditate, must read this sutta:

Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "'One who dwells in the Dhamma, one who dwells in the Dhamma': thus it is said, lord. To what extent is a bhikkhu one who dwells in the Dhamma?"

"Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions.[1] He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

"Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

"Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

"Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

"Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.

"Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."

- AN 05.073

Anyone who tells you not to meditate, and not to attain jhanas, will reap the consequences of that harmful advice.

Your job is to understand dependent origination and figure out how to attain jhanas and then see dependent origination.

You are the source
Of all purity and impurity.
No one purifies another.
Never neglect your work
For another's,
However great his need.
Your work is to discover your work
And then with all your heart
To give yourself to it

- Dhammapada 12

edit: My regimen viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34498&p=515064#p515064

[JamesTheGiant]

To OP and others who have questions like this:

That seems... complicated. How would you translate that that into practical life?

The gradual training refers to results, not to practice. The practice is always the same. The practice is:

Read suttas and exercise appropriate attention (satipatthana off cushion, attain jhanas on cushion).

Ah, that is a big difference. Thank-you, I did look at it as a guide to practise, and not as results. That's much more simple.

[Polar Bear]

The gradual training refers to results, not to practice.

Why would something called a training refer to results and not to practice, i.e. training? It seems an odd enough idea to me I originally wrote a more mocking post, and then thought better of it.

[budo]

The gradual training refers to results, not to practice.

Why would something called a training refer to results and not to practice, i.e. training? It seems an odd enough idea to me I originally wrote a more mocking post, and then thought better of it.

Because training just means repetition and consistency. There is a sutta that says that the entire training is the same for everyone it's just the higher attainers are more proficient, aka they have bigger concentration muscles (they don't fall asleep during advanced meditatiom for example)

It's also called the threefold training which refers to virtue, concentration, and wisdom. But in the end it's still just theory (dhamma) and proper attention (satipatthana, jhanas).

Like placing attention on dhamma subjects (fourth satipatthana) for example.

Hence the suttas in SN about the 4NT, which says instead of gossiping and wrong speech, better to talk about the 4NT. So it all comes down to proper attention.

Non-distractedness for attaining jhanas, is also proper attention, because you're keeping your attention on the object.

Wrong virtue (and the 3 misconducts) manifests in someone who can't control their attention.

The fetter of identity view is someone who can't keep his attention off his identify (narcissism, anxiety, etc..).. So their whole worldview is coloured by their identity. (E.g. who was I in the past? Who will I be in the future?)

[mikenz66]

Because training just means repetition and consistency.

But what about the numerous descriptions of the gradual training such as:
https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/bodhi#bps40
or
https://suttacentral.net/mn107/en/sujato#sc3
The latter has the pattern:

When they have XXX, the Realized One guides them further: ...

Of course, it would be an oversimplification to take such suttas and insist that progress is strictly linear, but there does appear to be a progression in both instruction and result.


Mike

[budo]

Because training just means repetition and consistency.

But what about the numerous descriptions of the gradual training such as:
https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/bodhi#bps40
or
https://suttacentral.net/mn107/en/sujato#sc3
The latter has the pattern:

When they have XXX, the Realized One guides them further: ...

Of course, it would be an oversimplification to take such suttas and insist that progress is strictly linear, but there does appear to be a progression in both instruction and result.


Mike

The only difference is the level of result, which depends on how developed the faculties are.

It's like adding weights to a bench press. If you put 300lbs, a beginner isn't going to lift it if their life dependend on it.

Obviously someone who has sloth (mental fatigue like muscle fatigue) in the first five minutes of meditation, isn't going to attain jhanas.

Someone who is addicted to sensual desires isn't going to attain knowledge and vision, so they need to renounce. Just like someone who doesn't renounce junk food and wrong livelihood won't make it Mr. Olympia body building contests or the olympics.

So the training is still proper attention, from beginning to end, each jhana is like "adding weights" to a bench press. Like when the Buddha instructs Moggallana to continue training a specific jhana and not to give up, each step of the way.

Satipatthana takes you from puttajhana to arahantship, which is just a training of proper attention. If you don't read the suttas, you won't know how to properly diagnose your issues, just like someone who has bad form when weight lifting will plateu with results and maybe give up.

For example, someone will gain results with general satipathana, but if they don't focus on one object and learn nimittas, then they won't be able to "add weight" to their bench press (meditation) and won't be able to strengthen their proper attention.

[budo]

In short, no one is going to make it to the olympics and win if they're distracted by video games and parties instead of training (repetitive and consistent undistractedness). Hence the importance of renouncing those distractions.

Just like in DN2, one renounces board games, sex, entertainment, sleeping luxuriously, etc.. so they can focus on training.

Training for enlightenment is like training for the Olympics.