budo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:43 am
You said there was no sutta evidence of an Ariya who is not beyond doubt, ...
I never stated that. You said that only an Ariya could take refuge. I assumed (possibly wrong, perfectly willing to admit that) you were talking about the more regular way of using that term, namely a stream-enterer or above. And therefore I did not see proof in the suttas that an Ariya would be the only one to be able to take refuge. And honestly I still am not convinced of that fact, especially given AN 8.25 and AN 5.175 combined.
By your definition, everyone here who has some conviction in the triple gem, is "incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry". I think that that is quite a generalization, significantly altering the general understanding (in my view also coming from the suttas) of the idea of an Ariya.
budo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:43 am
... Now you're babbling about something irrelevant.
Don't only focus on Right View, also keep Right Speech in mind. I might have expressed myself unclearly, but meant what I said sincerely and with the best intentions.
budo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:43 am
There is no contradiction. Had King Ajatasattu not attained path he would have gone to hell, but because he met the Buddha he attained path and professed his sins to the Buddha, which the Buddha accepted and told him his profession leads to growth in the Dhamma. Since he attained path, and thus some Right View, he became aware of his wrong doing.
So there is no contradiction, King Ajatasattu is free from states of woe, just like the mass murderer Aṅgulimāla, is free from states of woe upon hearing the Dhamma from the Buddha.
DN2 wrote:
When the Buddha had spoken, King Ajātasattu said to him, “Excellent, sir! Excellent! As if he were righting the overturned, or revealing the hidden, or pointing out the path to the lost, or lighting a lamp in the dark so people with good eyes can see what’s there, the Buddha has made the teaching clear in many ways. I go for refuge to the Buddha, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha. From this day forth, may the Buddha remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.
I have made a mistake, sir. It was foolish, stupid, and unskillful of me to take the life of my father, a just and principled king, for the sake of authority. Please, sir, accept my mistake for what it is, so I will restrain myself in future.”
“Indeed, great king, you made a mistake. It was foolish, stupid, and unskillful of you to take the life of your father, a just and principled king, for the sake of sovereignty. But since you have recognized your mistake for what it is, and have dealt with it properly, I accept it. For it is growth in the training of the noble one to recognize a mistake for what it is, deal with it properly, and commit to restraint in the future.”
When the Buddha had spoken, King Ajātasattu said to him, “Well, now, sir, I must go. I have many duties, and much to do.”
“Please, great king, go at your convenience.”
Then the king, having approved and agreed with what the Buddha said, got up from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled him, keeping him on his right, before leaving.
Soon after the king had left, the Buddha addressed the mendicants, “The king is broken, mendicants, he is ruined. If he had not taken the life of his father, a just and principled king, the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma would have arisen in him in that very seat.”
AN5.129 wrote:“Mendicants, these five fatal wounds lead to a place of loss, to hell. What five? Murdering your mother or father or a perfected one; maliciously shedding the blood of a Realized One; and causing a schism in the Saṅgha. These five fatal wounds lead to a place of loss, to hell.”
Ajātasattu killed his father -> Ajātasattu commited one of the heinous crimes -> Ajātasattu
is destined for the places of loss.
Ajātasattu has confidence in the triple gem -> Ajātasattu is an Ariya -> Ajātasattu
is not destined for the places of loss.
Therefore I did feel there was a contradiction. And I feel (did then and still do) the claim "Ajātasattu has confidence in the triple gem -> Ajātasattu is an Ariya" is the weakest link in this reasoning.
budo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:49 am
Even Mahasi Sayadaw (who follows Visuddhimagga's intrepretation of path and fruit) says King Ajatasattu has been spared hell.
After hearing the sermon, Ajatasattu formally declared himself a disciple of the Buddha. He would have attained the first stage on the path but for his patricide. Nevertheless, from that time he had peace of mind and after his death, he was spared the terrors of Avici hell that would have been in store for him had he not met the Buddha.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... c1984.html
He also said the following in "The Manual of Insight" (p.36, Wisdom Publications):
The two reasons that people fail to attain path knowledge and fruition knowledge in this life are bad companionship (pāpamittatā) and insufficient practice or instruction (kiriyāparihāni). We may take the case of Prince Ajātasattu as an example of bad companionship. Ajātasattu missed the opportunity for enlightenment because he followed the advice of his bad companion, Venerable Devadatta, and assassinated his own father,
King Bimbisāra. Killing one’s father is one of the five fatal misconducts and is necessarily an obstacle to not only path knowledge and fruition knowledge but also to insight knowledges, such as the insight knowledge of arising and passing away
But the bottomline is that all this is theoretical discussion in relation to the OP. I feel we can both agree that if one has confidence in the triple gem, one can go for refuge in the Triple Gem in order to 'become' a lay follower. That is, in a way, all that matters. Why would we want to discourage people taking refuge? Especially when indicating this is just one step on the path?