this is about the self, not life after deathThere are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who maintain a doctrine of percipient immortality and who on sixteen grounds proclaim the self to survive percipient after death. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?
the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
It can be within the extra common understandings of DO, either within the Commentaries or through instructors, for illustration, Ven Thanissaro, the situation i might have figured you might combat that the movements on rebirth and kamma are normal methodologies for approximating parts of the DO motion.
Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
If all is not self why clutch to the mountain of nothingness?cappuccino wrote: you're trying to justify annihilation
while missing the difference between no self & not self
There is no self but the imputation of "I am," which is like the effect of a magic trick; the awe of ignorance.
There is no difference between not self and no self, or rather I see no evidence of such.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
OKJerafreyr wrote: There is no difference between not self and no self, or rather I see no evidence of such.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
Jerafreyr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:26 pmIf all is not self why clutch to the mountain of nothingness?cappuccino wrote: you're trying to justify annihilation
while missing the difference between no self & not self
There is no self but the imputation of "I am," which is like the effect of a magic trick; the awe of ignorance.
There is no difference between not self and no self, or rather I see no evidence of such.
Agreed with the above:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 5:29 pm
There is no difference, in right-view. The difference only exists in those who want to make.Volo wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 1:06 pm BTW, can somebody briefly explain to me the difference "no self" vs. "not self" (i mean philosophy behind it)? I don't find distinction "An = not. Na = no" satisfactory, but before addressing it I would like to know what is the theory behind "no self"/"not self".
Ven. Sujato pointed out:... the distinction between “not-self” and “no-self” is not found in Pali ...https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/on ... gies/11836a theoretical distinction that has no place in the Dhamma.
I'm Ok with both "No self" and "Not self", as long as if/unless:
- Ok, If "no self" is used in non-anihilistionist sense.
Ven. Buddhadasa [not quibble here ] clearly explained this. He rejected the concept of “No-self” when it is used in the view of nihilism or Annihilationism. I wrote that in "prequisites" to understand Ven. Buddhadasa's "no self" and Not "no self".
viewtopic.php?p=507614#p507613
- Ok, Unless "Not self" is used under the shadow of eternalist/partial eternalist sense.
- Otherwise, as Bhikkhu Santi pointed out, there will be such notions like
viewtopic.php?p=12365#p12365"nibbaana is the ultimate self".
and
- Furthermore, there will be such notions like "there is a third thing called self or whatever, in addition to five aggregates and nibbana".
- And, furthermore, there will be strangest interpretations like:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... peace.html Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation of teaching of Ajaan Lee DhammadharoWe'll know, on the one hand, what's inconstant (aniccam), stressful (dukkham), and not-self (anatta); and on the other hand, what's uncommon, i.e., niccam — what's constant and true; sukham — true happiness, termed niramisa-sukha; and atta — the self. The eye of the mind can know both sides and let go both ways. It's attached neither to what's inconstant, stressful and not-self; nor to what's constant (niccam), good (sukham), and right (atta). It can let these things go, in line with their true nature.
- And, in addition to that, there will be such writings like:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
V. Nanananda
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
V. Buddhādasa
Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
No self = No A
Not self = Not A
If no A mean there is nothing
If not A it could be something
There is No unconditional self
However , there is unconditional nibbana
Not self = Not A
If no A mean there is nothing
If not A it could be something
There is No unconditional self
However , there is unconditional nibbana
You always gain by giving
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
And, ultimately, there's No such thing as Conditional self either.
And this, by Ven. Sujato:
... the distinction between “not-self” and “no-self” is not found in Pali ...
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/on ... gies/11836a theoretical distinction that has no place in the Dhamma.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
V. Nanananda
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
V. Buddhādasa
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
the right word is conditioned… not conditional
Nirvana is unconditioned
Nirvana is unconditioned
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?
AdvaitaJ wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm Thanks everybody!
Nice to know that others have struggled with this issue as well.
My atheist past was clearly set in the frame "when you're dead, you're gone". But now, developing some initial confidence in the dhamma is causing cracks in what had been a very simple and straightforward end-of-life scenario. What I've been able to distill from the replies essentially equates to ambiguity within an enigma for a question that, being honest here, amounts to me seeking a way to cling to existence. It would be quite ironic for me, after being such a strident atheist, to put such effort into trying to achieve nibbana if nibbana only equated to what my atheist beliefs produced in the first place!
During ur atheist past, u thought life ends permnently after dead but its just a thought as u cant stop it at will and it can rebirth. If you think nibbana is complete anhilation like state like no feeling, no conciousness, no awareness why be worry about that? If u have no awareness then no suffering and no perception of suffering or fear. Only when u r alive u fear. Anyways parinibbana is not annhilation of self as self dont exist in first place but if u attain parinibbana what u imagine is true like eventhough u wont be aware of it. U can see half water filled glass as half empty or half full so no awareness is seen as shit when u delight in feelings and vice versa. Its better dont delight in feeling as it changes. It cant be uncoinciouss state as if its true buddha would have recommended to undergo high alcholoic drinking which makes one unconciousness and passout. He also spoke of conciousness without surface and also told dont objectify the non objectiveness. Anyways using words to describe state beyond words will mislead so practise nd see for yoursrlf. Even if u fail or die in process of practise, u attain higher realm as backup.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to equate the two, it's just that things can wind up being extremely weird some ways.
Regards: AdvaitaJ
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
What do you think that means, practically speaking?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
Cessation of greed, of hatred and of delusion is theDinsdale wrote:What do you think that means, practically speaking?cappuccino wrote:
Nirvana is unconditioned
Unformed, the Unconditioned
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
That's a bit of a tautology. I was asking what it means to describe something as being unconditioned. Presumably it means being independent of conditions, but what does that entail? It presumably means unchanging, but does it also mean permanent?cappuccino wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:58 pmCessation of greed, of hatred and of delusion is theDinsdale wrote:What do you think that means, practically speaking?cappuccino wrote:
Nirvana is unconditioned
Unformed, the Unconditioned
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
unconditionedDinsdale wrote: Presumably it means
2.
not formed or influenced by conditioning
Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
Can this be understood using combinations of words and sentences? The symbols that make up our languages are just finite sets. For all practical purposes all the combinations of those symbols are also finite. The entire collection of every thought and every utterance and every thing written, past present and future, is finite. Part of Buddha's eight fold path is "Right Understanding" but this will include an understanding of the limitations of understanding. Everyone who reads this will reach Nirvana and the effects of it are retroactive, so start enjoying those effects right now! It's a good thing. Enjoy!
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread
yes, I think sobokaratom wrote: Can this be understood using combinations of words and sentences?