Jhana

[auto]

Sorry, but I do not quite understand what you want to convey in their posts.

ok

what you say is weed out states what isn't jhana.

Thing is to even get a state is mindblowing. Yes it is miniscule but when it happen it blows your socks off. After doing regularly progress that same mindblowing state you can go through when walking or even further during doing chores because you can stable yourself enough on the go.

in every moment you can cause cessation of being just know how to do it then do it and cessation occurs after that you can't cause anymore cessation at that stage, from this point the cessation happen by itself as a gap or blink out where you disappear and when you come aware you know you blinked out and when you notice you blinked out it completes this phase then you need find the cavity in head and dislodge/move energy from there it will cause again a blink out to occur but it is under the scope of knowing you caused the cessation.

you may name it as you like a weed but
the blink out is what makes you detached from feelings for a while like 'finally got what i wanted' detachment and btw it isn't even close to that at first to make that connection you prolly need to experinece it cirlce through different things a lot, years upon years.
Therefore
I propose the idea that the saying "in 1st jhana there is no perception of pain" is robust. I am aware im too also dogmatic but i feel im more gentle im sure there is after many many more cessations there is difference again.


and the blink outs/cessations will eventually cause some sort of inflame insides start go hot, sensations will go strain like violin strands.

[Spiny Norman]

There are fairly objective ways to weed out states that are definitely not jhana. For example, if at least one of the obstacles arises, then it is not jhana, if there are no jhana factors, then it is not jhana.

Yes. Presence of the jhana factors, and absence of the hindrances. That's probably about as objective you can be.

[Pulsar]

DooDoot wrote

My dear Pulsar
No. Dinsdale of off topic because I explained my view. Therefore, it is wrong to say Dinsdale is on topic

Unlike you Dinsdale thinks before he posts, or speaks. When OP started the thread on Jhana, Mn 128 was the last thing on his/her mind. Antaradhana introduced an unrelated sutta, MN 128, which he himself had not studied. He takes after you. You too toss unrelated suttas at folks, either to derail the thread or show off, or intimidate them. I have not quite figured out which one. Who made MN 128 the topic of discussion here? I am glad that Dinsdale saw through you. He is been on DW a lot longer than I am.
Thanks Dinsdale for not taking the bait.

[Pulsar]

DooDoot wrote

Being without hindrances is not necessarily 'jhana'

You attached a clip to that comment.
The said attachment speaks of upacara samadi and neighborhood concentration. Show me something from the Pali canon, that talks about upacara samadhi and this other concentration. Don't play games. Is this what Buddhadasa taught you? He was a great social reformer but when it came to Jhana, did he really know? I have read other scholars say that B's writings do not show that he had experience in jhana. Maybe his social reforms did not allow him time for absolute concentration. Of course what he wrote of, it appealed to many, he said many good things, had much charisma. Reminds me of a Mahayana monk who was extremely popular, but did he practice Jhana?
Your clip, contains material from commentaries. You stooped really low to prove your point. These samadhis and concentrations are used by those that adhere to Viapassana method. OP's post is about Rupa Jhanas, and how these are presented in the canon.

[Pulsar]

Auto wrote

I think the logic is in order to have perceptions of kama-loka you need be dwell in rupa-loka

quite so Auto, you understand. Buddha did not teach something impossible to accomplish, but the point is that in order to experience that, one needs quiet time, seclusion from the material world is essential, freedom from hindrances is essential.

[auto]

Auto wrote

I think the logic is in order to have perceptions of kama-loka you need be dwell in rupa-loka

quite so Auto, you understand. Buddha did not teach something impossible to accomplish, but the point is that in order to experience that, one needs quiet time, seclusion from the material world is essential, freedom from hindrances is essential.

See,

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato

“What can be known by purified mind consciousness released from the five senses?” “Nissaṭṭhena hāvuso, pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena kiṃ neyyan”ti?

“Aware that ‘space is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite space. Aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that ‘there is nothing at all’ it can know the dimension of nothingness.” “Nissaṭṭhena, āvuso, pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ neyyaṃ, ‘anantaṃ viññāṇan’ti viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ neyyaṃ, ‘natthi kiñcī’ti ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ neyyan”ti.

yes i don't understand what is so hard here?!
except this,


https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... ations.htm

1) Rūpī rūpāni passati.
One having form sees forms.
Ayaṁ paṭhamo vimokkho.
This is the first liberation. 02
2) Ajjhattaṁ arūpasaññī bahiddhā rūpāni passati.
Not perceiving forms internally, he sees forms externally.
Ayaṁ dutiyo vimokkho.
This is the second liberation. 03
3) Subhanteva adhimutto hoti.
One is intent on beauty. 04
Ayaṁ tatiyo vimokkho.
This is the third liberation.
4) Sabbaso rūpasaññānaṁ samatikkamā, paṭighasaññānaṁ atthaṅgamā,
Having completely transcended perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of (sensory) impact,
nānattasaññānaṁ amanasikārā: ‘Ananto ākāso’ ti,
not attending to perceptions of variety, (understanding): ‘This is endless space’,
ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
he abides in the sphere of endless space. 05
Ayaṁ catuttho vimokkho.
This is the fourth liberation.
5) Sabbaso ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ samatikkamma: ‘Anantaṁ viññāṇan’-ti
Having completely transcended the sphere of endless space, (understanding): ‘This is endless consciousness’,
viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
he abides in the sphere of endless consciousness.
Ayaṁ pañcamo vimokkho.
This is the fifth liberation.
6) Sabbaso viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ samatikkamma: ‘Natthi kiñcī’ ti
Having completely transcended the sphere of endless consciousness, (understanding): ‘This is nothing’,
ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
he abides in the sphere of nothingness.
Ayaṁ chaṭṭho vimokkho.
This is the sixth liberation.
7) Sabbaso ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma,
Having completely transcended the sphere of nothingness,
nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
he abides in the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.
Ayaṁ sattamo vimokkho.
This is the seventh liberation.
8) Sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma,
Having completely transcended the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception,
saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati.
he abides in the cessation of perception and feeling.
Ayaṁ aṭṭhamo vimokkho.
This is the eighth liberation.

it is techical and the 4th point is heavy. To the pass the sensory impact or whatever one likes to translate it.

2nd point is complicated already, i think it is about the form in torso in central column as certain blockage what isn't resolved.


at third one is intent on beauty, so by that you can maybe think that the 2nd point hindrance is aversion, dosa which is eradicated by sad-mindedness.

[Pulsar]

Dear Auto Writing about immaterial meditations,
you engage in these, right? and asked me why I find those difficult, based on a comment I made in the
thread.
Can I ask you a counter question? what do you gain by engaging in the Four immaterial meditations that cannot be gained by the 4th jhana. Now I know in some places those meditations are listed as blissful states, that enable one to move to Brahma Worlds, upon death. This is fine, if this is what one wishes for.
I have no inclination for this. I would rather engage in stuff like Iddhipada or sammappadana with my time.
But each follower does what he/she wants to do.
What I do, in addition to practice of 4 jhanas occasionally, is practice parts of the 37 awakening factors, Iddhipada for instance 1. will 2. Energy 3. Consciousness 4. Examination
listed under

Cattaro Iddipada

AKA

magical/Mental/supernatural power

This does not mean the practice of iddhipada is supernatural in the way some interpret.
If I misinterpreted your comment pl forgive me.

[auto]

Dear Auto Writing about immaterial meditations,
you engage in these, right? and asked me why I find those difficult, based on a comment I made in the
thread.
Can I ask you a counter question? what do you gain by engaging in the Four immaterial meditations that cannot be gained by the 4th jhana. Now I know in some places those meditations are listed as blissful states, that enable one to move to Brahma Worlds, upon death. This is fine, if this is what one wishes for.
I have no inclination for this. I would rather engage in stuff like Iddhipada or sammappadana with my time.
But each follower does what he/she wants to do.
What I do, in addition to practice of 4 jhanas occasionally, is practice parts of the 37 awakening factors, Iddhipada for instance 1. will 2. Energy 3. Consciousness 4. Examination
listed under

Cattaro Iddipada

AKA

magical/Mental/supernatural power

This does not mean the practice of iddhipada is supernatural in the way some interpret.
If I misinterpreted your comment pl forgive me.

there are many ways to tell the same thing.

first cessation is through using regular eyes. It will open a way down to body, the thing what descends will gestate and take time till it is raised, that thing is a being what you can see arising and passing away and at some point you can grasp it and stabilize for second entrance.

i gain a being which is the dhamma, bhū and when it exists or comes to be - bhūta. From what i know what to do if i am not connected to that being i look for ways how to connect with it and the moment i connect i understand that i am connected so i am looking for that feeling or sensation as a sign and that is the practice i do i nurture the being.

and i get to know new areas, openings regularly.

thing is it is about also cross-sections in body(chakras, nodes whatever) where are many dhatus hence the manyfolds of paths and directions you can take hence you can be stuck with the 1st jhana and think it is the end cessation, release there that there is no more being, here the being is bhava or continued existence and when bhava is done away you will see arising and passing away of beings on that respectable realm.
--
i claim all attainments and have done so from the point i read about it, its what keeps me going. In irl i used to talk about states what took a long time to get but then the person in next meetup said he got it, here how easy it is to manipulate.. there are people who tell you lots of things but the depth of these things is shallow so i only take into account events what are groundbreaking and they need occur two times to hold some credibility hence circling, repeating events they can be unique and not possible to describe but they can be generalized into groups. Even in Sutta say perception, feeling and consciosuenss can't be dissected completely they are mixed.

[Pulsar]

Auto wrote

first cessation is through using regular eyes. It will open a way down to body, the thing what descends will gestate and take time till it is raised, that thing is a being what you can see arising and passing away and at some point you can grasp it and stabilize for second entrance

Dear Auto, is this from the canon? If so, can you pl. point to the Sutta number?
Canon has presented 4 jhanas or early buddhist meditations in a variety of ways. For instance I found the way to reach the Void, as in the Shorter sutta on the Void, MN 121 very helpful, at the beginning, to get my arms around what Buddha means by the word 'void'.
Then I investigated MN 64 that has a pretty neat presentation, just the first jhana is sufficient to be rid of the defilements, and arrive at the unborn, but it requires a superior effort that was not within my reach.
If one did not have that good foundation (karmic?), one could at least get rid of the pernicious notion of "I" by practicing first jhana, as instructed there.

The following is a general statement, If Buddha was with us, perhaps with one sutta, he would enable us to gain required insight, right away.
He is not here, so we have to wade through the many suttas, and figure out which one is appropriate for us. While we do that we must not try to adjust the suttas to fit our needs. Of course we may tweak our practice to suit our individual needs, without making the false claim, that 'Buddha did not say 1st jhana was required to gain stream entry for an ordinary citizen'. There is a difference between mundane and supra mundane, often referred to, when speaking of the Noble Path, but I do not quite get the meaning of Natural vs Super-natural in relation to the Noble Path.

[auto]

Auto wrote

first cessation is through using regular eyes. It will open a way down to body, the thing what descends will gestate and take time till it is raised, that thing is a being what you can see arising and passing away and at some point you can grasp it and stabilize for second entrance

Dear Auto, is this from the canon? If so, can you pl. point to the Sutta number?
Canon has presented 4 jhanas or early buddhist meditations in a variety of ways. For instance I found the way to reach the Void, as in the Shorter sutta on the Void, MN 121 very helpful, at the beginning, to get my arms around what Buddha means by the word 'void'.
Then I investigated MN 64 that has a pretty neat presentation, just the first jhana is sufficient to be rid of the defilements, and arrive at the unborn, but it requires a superior effort that was not within my reach.
If one did not have that good foundation (karmic?), one could at least get rid of the pernicious notion of "I" by practicing first jhana, as instructed there.

The following is a general statement, If Buddha was with us, perhaps with one sutta, he would enable us to gain required insight, right away.
He is not here, so we have to wade through the many suttas, and figure out which one is appropriate for us. While we do that we must not try to adjust the suttas to fit our needs. Of course we may tweak our practice to suit our individual needs, without making the false claim, that 'Buddha did not say 1st jhana was required to gain stream entry for an ordinary citizen'. There is a difference between mundane and supra mundane, often referred to, when speaking of the Noble Path, but I do not quite get the meaning of Natural vs Super-natural in relation to the Noble Path.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bi-vb-pc10/en/horner

“Yā pana bhikkhunī naccaṃ vā gītaṃ vā vāditaṃ vā dassanāya gaccheyya, pācittiyan”ti.
“Whatever nun should go to see dancing or singing or music, there is an offence of expiation.”

If she goes to see, there is an offence of wrong-doing. Standing where she sees or hears, there is an offence of expiation. If having left the region of sight, she sees or hears again, there is an offence of expiation. If she goes to see one or the other, there is an offence of wrong-doing. Standing where she sees or hears, there is an offence of expiation. If having left the region of sight, she sees or hears again, there is an offence of expiation.

There is no offence if, standing in a monastery, she sees or hears; if, having come to where nuns are resting or sitting down or lying down, they dance or sing or play music; if, going along a path, she sees or hears; if, having gone as there is something to be done, she sees or hears; if there are accidents; if she is mad, if she is the first wrong-doer.

https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/sujato

“Mendicants, I say that the ending of defilements is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know or see. “Jānato ahaṃ, bhikkhave, passato āsavānaṃ khayaṃ vadāmi, no ajānato no apassato.

it is these vinaya tiny things matter. Going out to see is a mistake and staying there then there will be aftermath. But if you don't go out and then seeing and hearing, getting mad, doing wrong it is not an offence and there will be no aftermath.


http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/vinaya

vinayaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Vinaya，[fr．vi+nī，cp．vineti] 1．driving out，abolishing destruction，removal

so if you have desire to drink coffee, you go and do coffee then that is an first mistake, the second mistake as expiation is when you drinking that coffee.

if you notice that desire you can liberate your mind from asavas doing jhana as of staying in mental place waht is free of sensual pleasures but sensual pleasures will beset you.. in higher jhana there are previous jhana features beseting or what you can get rid off as they are more things to do.

if you eat yourself full go do things what you desire etc then decide to go to meditate on a nice breeze and sunset near the ocean that is not jhana i afraid, since because of offences or you can be go pretty wild with doing things like wahtching dramas, music but they aren't offences.

point is if you don't do anything then there is things like how i put my eyes or how i have to be, you can directly cultivate the body, sense organs. But lay person does have to do things so by these actions the things in body react and by that you can't meditate body.

https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujato

‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance.
‘ye assu darathā kāmāsavaṃ paṭicca tedha na santi, ye assu darathā bhavāsavaṃ paṭicca tedha na santi, ye assu darathā avijjāsavaṃ paṭicca tedha na santi, atthi cevāyaṃ darathamattā yadidaṃ—
There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ imameva kāyaṃ paṭicca saḷāyatanikaṃ jīvitapaccayā’ti.

to my understanding i wonder to whom the Suttas are meant because at the end you are with the body, sense fields and such.
The Three Belief Systems

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... suttam.htm

Table of Contents (outline)

Those who Believe in what was Done in the Past
Those who Believe in the Power of God
Those who Believe there is No Cause or Condition

The Buddha's Teaching

The Six Elements
The Six Spheres of Contact
The Eighteen Investigations of Mind
The Four Noble Truths

bad, i need read better, the there is no offence when during going to somewhere you see or hear music or dance. When on a path to somewhere and see some dance, entertainment, that is no offence. That makes now more sense to me.

when you particularly going to a place where is dance and music that is an offence. Se there is no wiggle room while at the same time many reasons how you have ended up listening music and its no offence.

[auto]

just the first jhana is sufficient to be rid of the defilements, and arrive at the unborn, but it requires a superior effort that was not within my reach.
If one did not have that good foundation (karmic?), one could at least get rid of the pernicious notion of "I" by practicing first jhana, as instructed there.

what is unborn?
out of the bat it is a state of being what liberates but hasn't come out or is unveiled.

sense of self is requiered tho. I yet to this day don't understand how that is hindrance if self literally radiates from body and can integrate it into your being to then get to head, brain and sense organs

[Pulsar]

Dear Auto, I will address the first comment for the moment, just a small part of it, for now. You wrote

Nun's Expiation

what a beautiful sutta of sensual pleasures, the first thing one must temporarily give up to enter first jhana. I have to admit my ignorance regarding Vinaya Pitaka, other than its Maha Vagga. Someone like you willing to discuss the many ways of looking at Jhana is a gift to Dhamma Wheel. I like these few lines of that sutta

Dancing means: whatever is dancing. Singing means: whatever is singing. Music means: whatever is music

all relating to sensual pleasures, and tells us a story of nuns in Buddha's time. Pl share more stories from Vanaya Pitaka. I will need time to go over this sutta.

Meanwhile I will share how I learnt to approach buddhist jhana, one sutta at a time, I will go over this, a portion at a time using MN 64.
In my words the sutta starts, sort of like this
The untaught ordinary citizen unskilled and undisciplined, with a mind enslaved by identity view, does not understand the escape from "I". He is the prisoner of 'I'
The taught ordinary person becomes skilled and disciplined, he understands the escape from "I" that has become habitual in him, 'cause the teacher taught, that anyone without relying on the Noble path shall know or abandon this fetter of 'I', is impossible...so he explores the first material jhana...
and he is relieved, there is this escape hatch from this prison
of 'I'
PS will continue later as I find time. Perhaps I will address your second comment next time.

[Pulsar]

Auto wrote

what is unborn? out of the bat it is a state of being what liberates but hasn't come out or is unveiled.sense of self is requiered tho. I yet to this day don't understand how that is hindrance if self literally radiates from body and can integrate it into your being to then get to head, brain and sense organs

For the time being, I shall ignore the unborn, or nibbana.
But let us address the second issue briefly, you say a sense of self is required, it radiates from the body?
Fine auto, if you need it for the moment, hang on to the self, but what is that sense of self? your feelings, your body that is radiant? your perceptions? these thought formations that emanate from body, the consciousness? But, but, If you call these things your dear self, are you not calling your 'self' things that are constantly disintegrating?
The form a handsome youth once, (imagining you are not youth any more) now older, or greying with time, men and women may not look at you the same way they did once, longingly. During a heat wave, the body complains, 'bring me cooling, or fan, I cannot put up with this, mosquitoes bite me'
Is it fun to have a body like this, that one day will be murdered, when the mentalities decide to leave it? what is it then a rotting corpse?
Let us leave the corpse aside, this horrible body made of the flesh, blood and bones, is fragile,
If a truck hits it on the highway, one is a pancake, flattened.
Consider feelings, you are hurt when someone is mean to you. If you think feelings are yourself, then why allow feelings to hurt you.

Don't you have control over them since, you are the owner of them, like the car you own?. Car can be controlled but not your feelings, emotions, thoughts.

Is it fun to be owned by things that are not steady? One gets whipped this way and that way.
Or imagine one gets a disease, say cancer, all those shivers, fearful feelings of death if there is no treatment. If you thought your feelings were you, why are they messing with you? what point is owning feelings that
bring you infamy?
Is it not better to create a distance from feelings, a state of equanimity serves you well, as happens in Jhanas to different degrees, peaking at 4th jhana.
Now Vinaya or Book of Discipline is about self restraint,
restraint of what? one aspect is restraint in thinking that what one thinks is self, is really not self. You are better than those ever changing, sorrow bringing demons of sensations and dispositions.

Tell me auto, maybe you will prove to me the advantage of
feelings, perceptions, sankharas etc, and bundling of those as Self. This body, these mentalities are only representations of karmic events, that we create constantly even now, it is just the result of abhisankarothi. Our stupidity or ignorance of the 4 Noble truths, makes us constantly create suffering, like a soup we are stirring, initiallly tasty, it is like heaven, and later we feel like barfing.
Herein is where the meditations come in, during jhana strength meditation, when the mind is swept free of dust, one begins to see, truths of the doctrine.

[Pulsar]

Dear Auto to get back to MN 64, which is a teaching on how to get rid of "I", via jhana, continuing,

whatever exists this material form of Pulsar or Auto, these sensations, formations, etc are constantly disintegrating

we should see them as void of substance, they are not self, they are stamped with the 3 rings of a snake (metaphor). One who sees it like this turns away from those towards the deathless element,

this is peaceful, this is sublime, that is the stilling of all formations, relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of of craving dispassion, cessation, nibbana

Auto this is where nibbana comes into the picture.

[Pulsar]

Auto when you say

a sense of self is required, it radiates from the body

and implying that you are nothing without this misperceived self, are you not creating quite a predicament for yourself? for the Sublime One has said

these states are a disease, a calamity, a thorn an affliction, they are alien

alienate you from the sweet Dhamma, the Dhamma that is ambrosial. And the force of your conviction make you keep company with a pile of stuff disintegrating, void, that are not your self? but just a fake self?
When you cling to that fake self are you not fooling yourself, are you not doing yourself a disservice? this self is only a crutch that Mara or delusion offers you. Don't take the bait.