Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

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greenjuice
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Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by greenjuice »

Leigh Brasinton gives a very specific instruction on how to enter the jhanas. Namely, firstly to achieve "access concentration" by focusing on the breath or whatever object one has chosen, and then, when this is achieved, to shift the attention to the pleasantness of a pleasant physical sensation (which, he says, mostly appears in the hands, but can also appear in chest, or forehead, or top of the head, or wherever). He says to drop the attention from the initial object of meditation (breath or whatever), and shifting it to this pleasantness. Then, remaining focused on the pleasantness of the pleasant physical sensation and just observing that pleasantness (a key step according to him), the pleasantness starts (on it's own) to irregularly increase incrementally, and at one point it "explodes into an unmistakable state of ecstasy", whereby one has entered the first jhana. From his talkings about jhanas it seems that he (and a lot of his students) regularly enter the four (or at least the first three) jhanas, using this method (which, i have to say, is maybe the clearest and most understandable explanation of a method i've read).

Now, my question here is, is this method he explains to be found somewhere in the suttas and/or the commentaries? If not, where does this method originate?
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by auto »

i link for some more information about the jhana he does.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discus ... ge_6026711

youtube.com/watch?v=RCLT64SLYZk
17.00
shift focus to pleasantness. The smile.
works only about 25 percent of students.
pleasant sensation most commonly found in hands. Sort of warm tingly glow.
otherplaces, heart, head..
19.00 pleasant sensation erupts into piti, sukkha- extacy delight euphoria. Its a physical release of pleasant energy.
20.00 you can't do the jhanas. What you can do is set up supporting conditions, then jhana comes and finds you. Setting up a postivie feedback loop.
2100 adding more pleasentness to pelsanetenss means more pleasentness. 2140- it errupts into piti and sukha. It can feel like you getting out out of control.
2400- ...nucle...reward center is on overdrive. We seemto stimulate reward center automatically with just mental lack of activity and directing of attention.
[24.50 nucleus..produces dopamine. Dopamine breaks down into nepynepfrim. It can produce heatt, alsmot like hot flash.] - its piti.
25.50 sukha the joy happiness-thats probably opioids. Makes you feel good, calminf effect. Piti dies out, sukha the emotional stuff is there.
30.00- piti goes away. rapture fades. happiness free from rapture. Contented state, a wishless state. Completly satisfied.
32. 4th jhana, state beyond pleasure and pain. Emotional neutrality. Go with the sense of dropping down to quet and stillness.
33.00 4th contains mindfullness fully purified by equanimity. Concetration now is quite supreme. Usual way of looking world isn't there.
33.40 can direct now mind t oknowing and seeing.35.00 purpose of jahan is to produce a mind that is concentrated, clear, sharp,....perfect for to investigate reality.
35.20 knowing and seeing things as they really are. Knowing and seeing wahts actually happening.
36.20- at 4th jhana, contraucting of Ego- the self is shut down.
37.00 can do insight(investigation) much less egocentricly.
37.40- sharp the mind and go out and see whats really going on. Come out and investigate your mind and body. Satiphattana sutta, 13 ways to practice insight practices.
38.45- vedana- mindfulness of initual reactions of sensory input. pleasant, unpleasant, neutral.
We running after sources of pleasant vedana and avoid unplesant. We don't pay attention to these but thats waht running our lives.
39.30- third of mindfulness establishment, mindfulness of mindstates. Investigating the mind.
39.40 4th establishment of mindfulness is investigation of phenomena as phenomena relates of the teachings of the Buddha. Investigate the reality.
40.00 end of talk of 4 jhanas. There are also 4 immaterial states. that means 8 altered states in sequence.
41.00 infinite space. 1st arupa jhana. limitless, boundless. Vast empty space appear in front of you. Huge space.
43.21- 5th jhana is realm of infinte space. 3D infinite space.
44.44- 6th realm is infinite conciousness. Trick here is you can't be concious of infinite space with a limited conciousness.
Conciousness has to be big as whatever it is concious at. Can you turn your attention from the space to your conciousness of space?! can you become aware of your awareness?!
45.07- if you do that there is a sense of becomeing absorbed into that space and then your mind is as big the space was. Union with atman.
45.40- 7th is realm of nothingness. Sense of space is gone. Object is no object.. Feeling that there is nothing there, that sense of nothingness.
46.30- people stumble all these states unintentionally too.
47.00 8th jhana. Percetion- sanna is the ability to name, identify things. 8th jhana is neither naming nor not not naming.
This sate does not have characteristics to descibe it. Except you can reqocnice this state by that it has no characteristics..
according to this he uses Sutta as inspiration = Theravadin.
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by DooDoot »

greenjuice wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:35 amNow, my question here is, is this method he explains to be found somewhere in the suttas and/or the commentaries? If not, where does this method originate?
The Leigh Brasinton method appears to be an idiosyncratic invention of Leigh Brasinton. Otherwise, since Leigh Brasinton claims to be a student of Ayya Khema, listening to the teachings of Ayya Khema may find the origin.
Ayya Khema taught a level of absorption that at least some of her students could learn in a 10-day mediation retreat. Although the depth of concentration is not terribly strong in the first three Jhanas, she did want her students to be absorbed enough in the fourth Jhana that sounds stopped being heard, or at least seemed noticeably muffled. Ayya taught using the breath, Metta, and "sweeping" as access methods. She took The Graduated Training as her guide for what to do with the Jhanas: "With ones mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, one directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision" of things as they are.

Leigh Brasington, a student of Ayya Khema, teaches in her style, but wants a bit more absorption in the first Jhana than Ayya wanted, and is willing to accept less absorption in the fourth Jhana.

http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm
However, in this video, I cannot find the method. At 26:00 Ayya Khema says: "not to look for that feeling". At 29:21 "a natural evolution of the mind".

The above said, in the video, Ayya Khema appears to wrongly classify any rapture as jhana. Also, around 31:00, Ayya underestimates 'neighbourhood concentration'.

I couldn't find the origin below but I did not listen to the whole video:


Monastic commentators, such as Ajahn Buddhadasa & Ajahn Brahm, have said the 1st jhana consummates without the willfulness or manipulation Leigh Brasinton describes. Ajahn Brahm (below):
From the moment of entering a Jhana, one will have no control. One will be unable to give orders as one normally does. The very idea of "what should I do next" cannot even come up. When the "will" that is controlling vanishes away, then the "I will" that fashions one's concept of future also disappears. The concept of time ceases in Jhana. Within a Jhana, one cannot decide what to do next. One cannot even decide when to come out. It is this absolute absence of will and its offspring, time, that give the Jhanas the feature of timeless stability and that lead to Jhana states persisting, sometimes for many blissful hours.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
Ajahn Buddhadasa (below):
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1st jhana 2.png
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by greenjuice »

While reading about this, i found that there is a somewhat similar thing mentioned in the suttas, ie pamojja - gladness /pleasantness, is mentioned as preceding the first jhana, although i dont know if this is anywhere expounded on, whether this is a physical sensation, and whether one should focus on that pleasantness, that would basically be the method Leigh gives.
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

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greenjuice wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:08 am While reading about this, i found that there is a somewhat similar thing mentioned in the suttas, ie pamojja - gladness /pleasantness, is mentioned as preceding the first jhana, although i dont know if this is anywhere expounded on, whether this is a physical sensation, and whether one should focus on that pleasantness, that would basically be the method Leigh gives.
I always post my opinion that there are different degrees & contexts of rapture & joy and therefore not all rapture & joy are related to jhana. For example:

1. SN 12.23 refers to rapture after developing faith when learning there is an end to suffering.

2. AN 11.2 refers to rapture when knowing the mind is free from remorse, i.e., is moral.

3. SN 46.3 refers to rapture as factor of awakening that arises from successfully practising basic mindfulness & insight

4. MN 118 refer to rapture arising from calming of breathing yet with the knowing of breathing

5. Jhana suttas refer to rapture arising without knowing of breathing

Also, MN 118 refers to pamojja - gladness (step 10) occurring after rapture (step 5).

Best to not develop obsessions with imaginings about 'jhana' that lead to identifying non-experiences of jhana as jhana. :smile:
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

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Both SN 12.23 and AN 11.2 talk about pamojja as a step before piti. I also found SN 35.97 which says the same.

MN 118 is different, idk if it's parallel to jhanas, this one is like it's talking about something else. There's the detail that suttas i mentioned above all do a specific thing - they put calming down of the body and mind between piti and sukha, whereas MN 118 separates calming down of body and mind, putting the first before piti and sukha and the second after them.

Maybe the steps (ie some of them) given in MN 118 are parallel to the jhanas, and the 10th step abhippamodayam is actually a different thing from pamojja which is given in the three suttas i mentioned above. This would means that pamojja is a step before for the 1st jhana, as said in those three suttas, and abhippamodayam in MN 118 doesn't refer to the same type of experience, but actually refers to the 3rd jhana, as in 'gladdening the mind' there meaning the stopping of the bodily piti and retention of just the mental sukha.
Last edited by greenjuice on Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

greenjuice wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:35 am Leigh Brasinton gives a very specific instruction on how to enter the jhanas. Namely, firstly to achieve "access concentration" by focusing on the breath or whatever object one has chosen, and then, when this is achieved, to shift the attention to the pleasantness of a pleasant physical sensation (which, he says, mostly appears in the hands, but can also appear in chest, or forehead, or top of the head, or wherever). He says to drop the attention from the initial object of meditation (breath or whatever), and shifting it to this pleasantness. Then, remaining focused on the pleasantness of the pleasant physical sensation and just observing that pleasantness (a key step according to him), the pleasantness starts (on it's own) to irregularly increase incrementally, and at one point it "explodes into an unmistakable state of ecstasy", whereby one has entered the first jhana. From his talkings about jhanas it seems that he (and a lot of his students) regularly enter the four (or at least the first three) jhanas, using this method (which, i have to say, is maybe the clearest and most understandable explanation of a method i've read).

Now, my question here is, is this method he explains to be found somewhere in the suttas and/or the commentaries? If not, where does this method originate?
Hello,

Even if assuming Leigh Brasinton jhanas to be the real jhanas, any particular genuine Jhana methods need not be present in Suttas nor the Theravada commentaries. Jhana on its own is not necessarily Buddhistic nor Theravadan. Jhana sammaditthi exists independent of Buddha's Sasana.

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

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greenjuice wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:06 amBoth SN 12.23 and AN 11.2 talk about pamojja as a step before piti. I also found SN 35.97 which says the same.
Yes but these feelings in SN 12.23 & AN 11.2 arise before samadhi therefore they cannot be related to jhana because suttas such as MN 4 & MN 19 say the Buddha concentrated his mind before rapture, as follows:
My energy was roused up and unflagging, my mindfulness was established and lucid, my body was tranquil and undisturbed, and my mind was immersed in samādhi.

Āraddhaṃ kho pana me, brāhmaṇa, vīriyaṃ ahosi asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ.

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.

So
kho ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja vihāsiṃ

https://suttacentral.net/mn4/en/sujato
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greenjuice wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:06 amMN 118 is different, idk if it's parallel to jhanas
It does not appear to be an exact parallel to jhanas because jhanas do not include pamodaya.
greenjuice wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:06 amthis one is like it's talking about something else.
MN 118 appears to be referring to something less refined than jhana because, in jhana, the suttas do not mention knowing breathing.
greenjuice wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:06 amThere's the detail that suttas i mentioned above all do a specific thing - they put calming down of the body and mind between piti and sukha, whereas MN 118 separates calming down of body and mind, putting the first before piti and sukha and the second after them.
I already offered an explanation. The suttas you mentioned appear not about meditation or jhana.
greenjuice wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:06 amMaybe the steps (ie some of them) given in MN 118 are parallel to the jhanas
MN 118 has a similar sequence to the jhanas but not exactly the same.
greenjuice wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:06 am and the 10th step abhippamodayam is actually a different thing from pamojja which is given in the three suttas i mentioned above.
The 10th step abhippamodayam occurs because the mind is not pure after the 8th step (calming of sukha); unlike when sukha calms in jhana. MN 118 is less refined than jhana. Therefore, after the citta is made more pure in step 9, the 10th step abhippamodayam occurs.
greenjuice wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:06 am This would means that pamojja is a step before for the 1st jhana
All 16 steps of MN 118 appear to occur before the 1st jhana because jhana is a higher level of concentration than MN 118.
greenjuice wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:06 am as said in those three suttas, and abhippamodayam in MN 118 doesn't refer to the same type of experience, but actually refers to the 3rd jhana, as in 'gladdening the mind'
No. The 3rd jhana is not 'gladdening the mind'
greenjuice wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:06 am there meaning the stopping of the bodily piti and retention of just the mental sukha.
No. You seem to be developing the tendency that a few have here in equating any teaching about rapture, happiness & joy as "jhana". I already suggested not every reference to rapture, happiness & joy is jhana.

Kind regards :smile:
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

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Hm, then according to that approach it would seem that there are three different ways to enter the jhanas, the direct way, the 'Transcendental Dependent Arising' way, and Anapanasati way. If the latter two ways, jhanas are just mentioned as samadhi, whereas in the direct way they are describes as four successive states, and this way is given when talking about what is samma samadhi.

1 in TDA the steps are: faith (saddha), gladness (pamojja), rapture (piti), tranquillity (passaddhi), happiness (sukha), and then jhanas (samadhi)...

2 in Anapanasati the steps are:
Breathing in long he understands: 'I am breathing in long'.
Breathing out long he understands: 'I am breathing out long'.
Breathing in short he understands: 'I am breathing in short'.
Breathing out short he understands: 'I am breathing out short'.
He trains himself: 'experiencing the whole body, I will breathe in'. (sabba kaya patisamvedi)
He trains himself: 'feeling the whole body, I will breathe out'.
He trains himself: 'calming down the bodily fabrications, I will breathe in'. (passambhayam kaya sankharam)
He trains himself: 'calming down the bodily fabrications, I will breathe out'.
He trains himself: 'experiencing rapture, I will breathe in'. (piti patisamvedi)
He trains himself: 'experiencing rapture, I will breathe out'.
He trains himself: 'experiencing happiness, I will breathe in'. (sukha patisamvedi)
He trains himself: 'experiencing happiness, I will breathe out'.
He trains himself: 'perceiving mind formations, I will breathe in'. (citta sankharas padisamvedi)
He trains himself: 'perceiving mind formations, I will breathe out'.
He trains himself: 'calming down mind formations, I will breathe in'. (passambhayam citta sankharam)
He trains himself: 'calming down mind formations, I will breathe out'.
He trains himself: 'perceiving the mind, I will breathe in'. (citta patisamvedi)
He trains himself: 'perceiving the mind, I will breathe out'.
He trains himself: 'gladdening the mind, I will breathe in'. (abhippamodayaṃ cittam)
He trains himself: 'gladdening the mind, I will breathe out'.
and then in the next step we come to jhanas:
He trains himself: 'concentrating the mind, I will breathe in'. (samadaham cittam)
He trains himself: 'concentrating the mind, I will breathe out'.

3 and in the direct way, when Buddha the steps are just two: secluded from sensuality (vivicceva kamehi), secluded from unwholesome thoughts (vivicca akusalehi dhammehi) (maybe also vitakka and vicara are additional steps), one enters the first jhanas where he feels piti and sukha which are seclusion born (vivekajam); and then when one stills vitakka and vicara (vitakka vicaranam vupasama) and gets inner tranquility (ajjhattam sampasadanaṃ) and unification of the mind (cetaso ekodi bhavam) one thereby enters the second jhana and feels piti and sukha which are born of concentration (samadhijam).

According to this approach, it would seem that in TDA and Anapanasati Buddha thought existance of piti and sukha outside of jhanas, and preceding jhanas, with Anapanasati way even having several intermediary steps between those pre-jhana piti-sukha and the jhana piti-sukha, whereas in TDA the jhana piti-sukha immidately follow the pre-jhana sukha. If pamojja in TDA and abhippamodayam in Anapanasati refer to the same thing, the same gladness, this approach gets even weirder, it means that in TDA path gladness precedess the pre-jhana piti-sukha, whereas in the Anapanasati way it comes after them, in the TDA path gladness is the entrance to pre-jhana piti-sukha, and in Anapanasati path it is the entrance to jhana piti-sukha.

And we are left to wonder whether Buddha talked about two or three different types of piti and sukha, and why. I have to say, taking the opposite approach and trying to frame all three of these 'ways' as referring to the same thing (ie that piti-sukha in both TDA and Anapanasati refer to the jhana piti-sukha) seems more tempting, at least to me.
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by Spiny Norman »

I did a search on "jhana" at Sutta Central - see below. I had a quick look, but I can't see a specific method described for jhana.

https://suttacentral.net/search?query=Jhana
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

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greenjuice wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:47 amAnd we are left to wonder whether Buddha talked about two or three different types of piti and sukha, and why.
Imagine you meet your favourite monk, such as Ajahn Brahm or The Dalai Lama and they greet you warmly. What arises in your heart is rapture (piti). This is not jhana. Its not a mystery. The Commentaries speak of three different levels of concentration; where each will have its own level of rapture. Rapture arises when meeting Dalai Lama, rapture arises when developing faith, rapture arises when calming breathing but not totally (step 4 MN 118), rapture arises when entering jhana. Rapture can even arise by those who practise suppression meditation. Rapture can arise, like Brasington, when you convince yourself via thinking you have attained jhana. Regards
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

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Dinsdale wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:14 am I did a search on "jhana" at Sutta Central - see below. I had a quick look, but I can't see a specific method described for jhana.

https://suttacentral.net/search?query=Jhana
When describing samma-samadhi Buddha gives a short method, which i mentioned above.
DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:10 pmImagine you meet your favourite monk, such as Ajahn Brahm or The Dalai Lama and they greet you warmly. What arises in your heart is rapture (piti). This is not jhana. Its not a mystery. The Commentaries speak of three different levels of concentration; where each will have its own level of rapture. Rapture arises when meeting Dalai Lama, rapture arises when developing faith, rapture arises when calming breathing but not totally (step 4 MN 118), rapture arises when entering jhana. Rapture can even arise by those who practise suppression meditation. Rapture can arise, like Brasington, when you convince yourself via thinking you have attained jhana. Regards
This would maybe solve this question (whether there are piti states outside jhana), i will open a new topic about this question.
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

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DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:10 pm Rapture can arise, like Brasington, when you convince yourself via thinking you have attained jhana. Regards
After observing, and interacting with Leigh over the past few years, I would agree with this.
I am no Jhana master or anything of the sort, but for Buddhist practice, I believe, having an ability to see things from multiple perspectives, and not a closed narrow one is more an indication of someone who can enter Jhana that what I find with Leigh.
I wouldn't take his teachings as anything other than a poor academics belief in what goes on.
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Cittasanto wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:48 pm
DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:10 pm Rapture can arise, like Brasington, when you convince yourself via thinking you have attained jhana. Regards
After observing, and interacting with Leigh over the past few years, I would agree with this.
I am no Jhana master or anything of the sort, but for Buddhist practice, I believe, having an ability to see things from multiple perspectives, and not a closed narrow one is more an indication of someone who can enter Jhana that what I find with Leigh.
I wouldn't take his teachings as anything other than a poor academics belief in what goes on.
Generally speaking, I would agree with the above, adding that, as per AN 5.28, the 3rd and 4th jhanas rely upon equanimity.

As such, sutta-based warning signs that indicate that any self-proclaimed "jhana master" might be overstating their achievements include:

- Profiteering off the Dhamma (see: Charging For The Dhamma)
- Bereft of equanimity in daily life (see: AN 5.28)
- Obsession of resistance (AN 7.11)
- Obsession of views (AN 7.11)
- Aversion (AN 3.69)

:reading:

:meditate:

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Hi.

Leigh Brasington was Ayya Khema's student. I don't know his method in detail but it sounds similar to what Ayya Khema taught.

We have to distinguish between the "hard jhanas" and the "soft jhanas" to discuss Ayya Khema's method meaningfully.

"Hard jhanas" are absorptions where the attention is "locked" on the object, and the meditator is not aware of anything other than the object of meditation. No sounds, no body, no thoughts. "Soft jhanas" are absorptions where the meditator is absorbed in the object of meditation but the mind is not "locked" in the object. There is experience of the body (with piti, sukkha, etc.), there are occasional thoughts, although of secondary importance, and the exterior is muffled.

I believe the difference between the two types of jhanas are mostly about depth, but there may be differences in how they are accessed (nimita for "hard jhana" vs the object itself for "soft jhana"). There is also a split between more traditional interpretations of the teachings and more sutta-centred interpretations. The traditionalist theravadins tend to interpret jhana as "hard jhana", while the sutta-centred theravadins tend to interpret jhana as "soft jhana".

Ayya Khema taught the soft jhanas. So we can only judge the success of her method based on what kind of jhana is the goal. Her method is effective to reach the "soft jhanas". But, as I believe she points out in her instructions, there should be a period for building up the concentration before shifting the attention to be sequentially absorbed in jhana factors. Otherwise the jhanas can become relatively shallow experiences of the jhana factors.

:anjali:
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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