don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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frank k
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don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by frank k »

this is for all the people, who think jhana's passed them by...

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... a-at.html

(has audio file and lyrics)
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by Garrib »

I like it frank - I need jhana!
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by WindDancer »

Big Smiles...

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frank k
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by frank k »

Garrib wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:00 pm I like it frank - I need jhana!
A low quality first jhana, according to the suttas, is not hard at all.
For example:
AN 1.53 jhāna = mettā-cittaṃ āsevati
“accharā-saṅghāt-amattampi ce, bhikkhave,
"{Monks}, (if), for the amount of time it takes to snap-the-fingers,
bhikkhu mettā-cittaṃ āsevati;
a-monk {does} Friendly-kindness-(with the)-mind
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave —
this is-called, ********* -
‘bhikkhu arittaj-jhāno viharati
'a-monk not-devoid-(of)-jhāna (he) abides (in).
satthu-sāsana-karo
{he carries out} the-teachers-dispensation-****,
ovāda-pati-karo,
{he carries out} the-advice,
a-moghaṃ raṭṭha-piṇḍaṃ bhuñjati’.
not-(in)-futility (is the) country's-almsfood (that he) eats.'
ko pana vādo ye naṃ bahulī-karontī”ti!
how much-more I-say (of) he *** (that) abundantly-practices (it)!"

If you've ever listened to an inspiring Dhamma teacher or read a Dhamma talk or have been inspired by acts of virtue by any animal or living being, and as a result experienced piti and sukha, felt the warm fuzzy feelings all over your body and serenity in mind, you've had micro bursts of genuine first jhana. From a certain perspective, first jhana is not hard at all, and I'd say 99% of the people can do it, a low quality first jhana.

What is hard, from a certain perspective, is training the mind to take a time out from the 5 hindrances, on demand, whenever we want and maintain that time out for as long as we want. But that just takes practice, an investment and commitment in time and energy. It's not hard or difficult, in the way it is for someone to become an Olympic athlete, or a navy seal, an airforce pilot, or to do an arupa samadhi which Ajahn Brahm and Vism. wrongly redefine as 'first jhana', that vism. says only one in a million people can do. Arupa samadhi requires a lot of training, and a certain amount of good health that some people just don't have, and because of age ore other reason are probably not going to get no matter how much time they put in.

So as a result, because of wrong ideas promulgated by Vism. and Ajahn Brahm, you have a large number of Buddhists thinking they can never realistically get jhana. Very tragic.

Here's another sutta, where the Buddha and Sariputta tells 500 lay poeple to work on first and second jhana. Does that sound like something only 1 in a million can people can do?

AN 5.176
http://lucid24.org/an/an05/an05-0176/index.html
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by confusedlayman »

frank k wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:08 pm
Garrib wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:00 pm I like it frank - I need jhana!
A low quality first jhana, according to the suttas, is not hard at all.
For example:
AN 1.53 jhāna = mettā-cittaṃ āsevati
“accharā-saṅghāt-amattampi ce, bhikkhave,
"{Monks}, (if), for the amount of time it takes to snap-the-fingers,
bhikkhu mettā-cittaṃ āsevati;
a-monk {does} Friendly-kindness-(with the)-mind
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave —
this is-called, ********* -
‘bhikkhu arittaj-jhāno viharati
'a-monk not-devoid-(of)-jhāna (he) abides (in).
satthu-sāsana-karo
{he carries out} the-teachers-dispensation-****,
ovāda-pati-karo,
{he carries out} the-advice,
a-moghaṃ raṭṭha-piṇḍaṃ bhuñjati’.
not-(in)-futility (is the) country's-almsfood (that he) eats.'
ko pana vādo ye naṃ bahulī-karontī”ti!
how much-more I-say (of) he *** (that) abundantly-practices (it)!"

If you've ever listened to an inspiring Dhamma teacher or read a Dhamma talk or have been inspired by acts of virtue by any animal or living being, and as a result experienced piti and sukha, felt the warm fuzzy feelings all over your body and serenity in mind, you've had micro bursts of genuine first jhana. From a certain perspective, first jhana is not hard at all, and I'd say 99% of the people can do it, a low quality first jhana.

What is hard, from a certain perspective, is training the mind to take a time out from the 5 hindrances, on demand, whenever we want and maintain that time out for as long as we want. But that just takes practice, an investment and commitment in time and energy. It's not hard or difficult, in the way it is for someone to become an Olympic athlete, or a navy seal, an airforce pilot, or to do an arupa samadhi which Ajahn Brahm and Vism. wrongly redefine as 'first jhana', that vism. says only one in a million people can do. Arupa samadhi requires a lot of training, and a certain amount of good health that some people just don't have, and because of age ore other reason are probably not going to get no matter how much time they put in.

So as a result, because of wrong ideas promulgated by Vism. and Ajahn Brahm, you have a large number of Buddhists thinking they can never realistically get jhana. Very tragic.

Here's another sutta, where the Buddha and Sariputta tells 500 lay poeple to work on first and second jhana. Does that sound like something only 1 in a million can people can do?

AN 5.176
http://lucid24.org/an/an05/an05-0176/index.html
U r right my dear frank. Jhana can be practised and should be practised. Some people say tough because they don’t dare to try and discourage others too. I am a big fan of jhana and hope to stabilise the first in next few years that’s my personal project. I don’t want to die without lowest 1st jhana as I will be confused in death bed . Vism period maybe 1 in mill can attain maybe but if we practise correctly, we can attain even now as Ajhan monks in Thailand still do it.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by Volo »

frank k wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:08 pm ‘bhikkhu arittaj-jhāno viharati
'a-monk not-devoid-(of)-jhāna
This phrase doesn't mean the bhikkhu attained jhāna, but that he engaged in spiritual development. In AN I, sub-chapter 18, development of basically any positive quality is described by this phrase, even things, which don't presuppose any jhāna, like right livelihood or right speech or different types of recollections, which don't lead to jhāna, etc. This phrase ("not devoid of jhāna) is another example, where Pali word "jhāna" refers to what we call "meditation", and not jhāna.
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by Zom »

So as a result, because of wrong ideas promulgated by Vism. and Ajahn Brahm, you have a large number of Buddhists thinking they can never realistically get jhana. Very tragic.
Overestimation (aka jhana-lite) is bad, because this is falling into delusion. Realistically I don't know of anyone who has jhana nowadays. People talk too much about it, but no one can demonstrate, like, for example, sit on one place for 7 days, as Therigatha 3.2 says speaking about jhana. Not 7, not even 6, 5, 3, 1 day - or even half a day. Hardcore meditators do it for some 3-5 hours in a row and then go crazy because of the pain, which is totally absent in real jhana.
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by cappuccino »

Zom wrote: Overestimation (aka jhana-lite) is bad …
you make it all too difficult

which it's not
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by Khalil Bodhi »

Why not keep practicing with jhana as a provisional goal while armed with the perception that it is very possibly out of one's reach as a lay person at this point in the eon?
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by cappuccino »

"This thought of difficulty is the chief obstacle. A little practice will make you think differently."
-Ramana Maharshi



Jhana is just calmness
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by confusedlayman »

Zom wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:31 pm
So as a result, because of wrong ideas promulgated by Vism. and Ajahn Brahm, you have a large number of Buddhists thinking they can never realistically get jhana. Very tragic.
Overestimation (aka jhana-lite) is bad, because this is falling into delusion. Realistically I don't know of anyone who has jhana nowadays. People talk too much about it, but no one can demonstrate, like, for example, sit on one place for 7 days, as Therigatha 3.2 says speaking about jhana. Not 7, not even 6, 5, 3, 1 day - or even half a day. Hardcore meditators do it for some 3-5 hours in a row and then go crazy because of the pain, which is totally absent in real jhana.
Ajhan mun
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by cappuccino »

Zom wrote: Realistically I don't know of anyone who has jhana nowadays.
this isn't realistic
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by Zom »

Ajhan mun
Said who? That one who said that he had a chat with gods and buddhas.
this isn't realistic
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by frank k »

Does this sound out of reach? can you keep 5 precepts well?

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -cup.html

can you feel an immersive bodily and mental experience of joy from appreciating virtue, Buddha, Dharma, etc?
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Re: don't give up on jhāna yet, until you drink from the sutta cup

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/an3.112/en/sujato wrote: Desire comes up for things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present.
Atīte, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati;anāgate, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati;paccuppanne, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati.

And how does desire come up for things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, atīte chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati?

In your heart you think about and consider things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present.
Atīte, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti.

When you do this, desire comes up,Tassa atīte chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha cetasā anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato chando jāyati.
and you get attached to those things.Chandajāto tehi dhammehi saṃyutto hoti.
This lust in the heart is what I call a fetter.Etamahaṃ, bhikkhave, saṃyojanaṃ vadāmi yo cetaso sārāgo.
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.54/en/sujato wrote: ‘Good sir, the Brahmā realm is impermanent, not lasting, and included within identity.
‘brahmalokopi kho, āvuso, anicco addhuvo sakkāyapariyāpanno.
It would be good to turn your mind away from the Brahmā realm and apply it to the cessation of identity.
’Sādhāyasmā, brahmalokā cittaṃ vuṭṭhāpetvā sakkāyanirodhe cittaṃ upasaṃharāhī’ti.
Above that realm is ābhassara, another Brahmā loka but in second jhana. Can i guess that it is without vitakka and vicara. I wonder if that is citta applied to the cessation of sakkāya?
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/%C4%81/%C4%81bhassara wrote:Ābhassara:A Brahma-world where live radiant devas from whose bodies rays of light are emitted,like lightning. It belongs to the Rūpaloka and is in the plane of second jhāna (Abhs. v.3; Compendium 138,n.4). The devas living there subsist on joy (pītibhakkha) (S.i.114.; DhA.iii.258; J.vi.55).

Their span of life is two kappas and there is no guarantee that a person who has been born there may not later be reborn in an unhappy condition (A.ii.127; but see Abhs. v.6,where their life-span is given as eight kappas).
are there human worlds in rupa loka? I mean is jhana just bigger grouping what includes many different things. So you can do metta but land on world within 1st jhana but are mostly inhabited by regular people who get there with regular living.
https://suttacentral.net/mn71/en/sujato wrote: “But are there any laypeople who, without giving up the fetter of lay life, go to heaven when the body breaks up?”“Atthi pana, bho gotama, koci gihī gihisaṃyojanaṃ appahāya kāyassa bhedā saggūpago”ti?

“There’s not just one hundred laypeople, Vaccha, or two or three or four or five hundred, but many more than that who, without giving up the fetter of lay life, go to heaven when the body breaks up.”
“Na kho, vaccha, ekaṃyeva sataṃ na dve satāni na tīṇi satāni na cattāri satāni na pañca satāni, atha kho bhiyyova ye gihī gihisaṃyojanaṃ appahāya kāyassa bhedā saggūpagā”ti.
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