Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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confusedlayman
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Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by confusedlayman »

Sorry for the title but i read zen master teachings it actually reflect the experience of what i had and brings immediate nibbana of that particular feeling. Buddha teaching also same but zen teaching can be done by anyone with or without precepts. They also speak dynamic mind that is u be in samsara and next moment non abiding mind u ler go of all knowingness and reach a state cant describe by words and i found it true. I give more details later. Buddha teaching is my first preference as it is validated by anyone ofcourse but u emptiness is not spoken much and u need to undergo gradual training instead of sudden shift in perception. For example, i perceive emptiness and next moment i perceive samsara just by focus awareness of object to gain knowledge. This is what zen masters teach. Buddha teach it should be permanent attainnent. Once dont go to samsara after path knowledge. Im confused and i resct everyone and dhamma. Kindly help me see difference.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Zen teachers show many of the same truths in different words. If it's good, use it.

But be careful to use your brain to understand which parts are true, and which parts may be wrong or mistaken.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Ceisiwr »

There is a lot of wisdom in zen, but there is also a lot of baggage and conceptual proliferation. What is of worth in zen you can easily find in Theravada and the Pali suttas.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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confusedlayman
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:01 pm There is a lot of wisdom in zen, but there is also a lot of baggage and conceptual proliferation. What is of worth in zen you can easily find in Theravada and the Pali suttas.
Bhazanghi huaihui someone really spoke of what i am looking and it illuminated me. Now i got trapoed in bare awsreness its free from mundane suffering but im worried if its non doing dhamma where i lose already earbed merit and dont stake up new. However i use conventional language in this post.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Dan74
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Dan74 »

Zen is a very grounded practice. It is not so much about the experience but about the action. You sounds a bit like somebody describing a trip. How do you live? What do you do with your day? How do you handle challenging situations? These are much more relevant than what experiences you have.
_/|\_
Disciple
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Disciple »

Spend time at a theravada and zen center and see which one resonates with you the most. Both are legit.
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Spiny Norman »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:51 pm Sorry for the title but i read zen master teachings it actually reflect the experience of what i had and brings immediate nibbana of that particular feeling. Buddha teaching also same but zen teaching can be done by anyone with or without precepts. They also speak dynamic mind that is u be in samsara and next moment non abiding mind u ler go of all knowingness and reach a state cant describe by words and i found it true. I give more details later. Buddha teaching is my first preference as it is validated by anyone ofcourse but u emptiness is not spoken much and u need to undergo gradual training instead of sudden shift in perception. For example, i perceive emptiness and next moment i perceive samsara just by focus awareness of object to gain knowledge. This is what zen masters teach. Buddha teach it should be permanent attainnent. Once dont go to samsara after path knowledge. Im confused and i resct everyone and dhamma. Kindly help me see difference.
Possibly you're referring to Kensho?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensh%C5%8D

In any case, Zen and Theravada are quite different approaches to Buddhism, and mixing them up will probably lead to confusion.
If you're exploring Zen, I would recommend putting Theravada ideas to one side while you're doing it.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Image


Today, while watching some zen painting techniques, I found this ...
  • how to unfold my True Universal Self.
Yayyy!

... In this way Zen Brush Painting is both a practice of and expression of Enlightenment. The paintings are secondary.

1. It’s Not About You
Zen Brush painting is not about your talent, knowledge or skill. It’s not about you. It is about your True Universal Self, not the separate being you think and believe you are. Let all of that go. Empty yourself of yourself. Let the universe use this empty vessel to express itself through the brush, ink and paper. Let the painting unfold by itself.
...
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22
SteRo
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:51 pm Sorry for the title but i read zen master teachings it actually reflect the experience of what i had and brings immediate nibbana of that particular feeling. Buddha teaching also same but zen teaching can be done by anyone with or without precepts. They also speak dynamic mind that is u be in samsara and next moment non abiding mind u ler go of all knowingness and reach a state cant describe by words and i found it true. I give more details later. Buddha teaching is my first preference as it is validated by anyone ofcourse but u emptiness is not spoken much and u need to undergo gradual training instead of sudden shift in perception. For example, i perceive emptiness and next moment i perceive samsara just by focus awareness of object to gain knowledge. This is what zen masters teach. Buddha teach it should be permanent attainnent. Once dont go to samsara after path knowledge. Im confused and i resct everyone and dhamma. Kindly help me see difference.
Buddhas speak of void dharmas in order to destroy views, but if you are in turn attached to voidness, you are one whom Buddhas cannot transform. At the point of arising, only voidness arises. At the point of extinguishing, only voidness extinguishes. In reality there is not one dharma that arises. In reality there is not one dharma that extinguishes. All dharmas arise due to craving. Craving has neither inside nor outside, nor does it lie in beetween. Discrimination is a void dharma, but common men are broiled by it. The false and the correct have neither inner nor outer, nor do they lie in the various directions. Discrimination is a void dharma, but common men are broiled by it. All dharmas are like this.
The Dharma Body is formless. Therefore, one sees it by no-seeing. Dharma is soundless. Therefore, one hears it by no-hearing. If one takes seeing as seeing, then there is something that is not seen. If one takes no-seeing as seeing, then there is nothing that is not seen. If one takes knowing as knowing, then there is something that is not known. If one takes no-knowing as knowing, then there is nothing that is not known. Insight is capable of knowing itself, and so it is not something that has knowing, and yet, because it knows vis-à-vis things, it is not something that lacks knowing. If one takes apprehending as apprehending, there is something that is not apprehended. If one takes no-apprehending as apprehending, then there is nothing that is not apprehended. If one takes 'is' as 'is', then there will be something that 'is not'. If one takes 'having-no-is' as 'is', then there is nothing that 'is not'. One gate of insight enters one hundred thousand gates of insight. One sees a pillar characteristic and makes the interpretation pillar. Observe that mind is the pillar dharma and no pillar characteristic exists. Therefore, when one sees a pillar, it is the apprehension of a pillar dharma. The seeing of all forms is like this.
excerpt from The Bodhidharma Anthology, J. L Broughton

Better?
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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confusedlayman
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:47 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:51 pm Sorry for the title but i read zen master teachings it actually reflect the experience of what i had and brings immediate nibbana of that particular feeling. Buddha teaching also same but zen teaching can be done by anyone with or without precepts. They also speak dynamic mind that is u be in samsara and next moment non abiding mind u ler go of all knowingness and reach a state cant describe by words and i found it true. I give more details later. Buddha teaching is my first preference as it is validated by anyone ofcourse but u emptiness is not spoken much and u need to undergo gradual training instead of sudden shift in perception. For example, i perceive emptiness and next moment i perceive samsara just by focus awareness of object to gain knowledge. This is what zen masters teach. Buddha teach it should be permanent attainnent. Once dont go to samsara after path knowledge. Im confused and i resct everyone and dhamma. Kindly help me see difference.
Buddhas speak of void dharmas in order to destroy views, but if you are in turn attached to voidness, you are one whom Buddhas cannot transform. At the point of arising, only voidness arises. At the point of extinguishing, only voidness extinguishes. In reality there is not one dharma that arises. In reality there is not one dharma that extinguishes. All dharmas arise due to craving. Craving has neither inside nor outside, nor does it lie in beetween. Discrimination is a void dharma, but common men are broiled by it. The false and the correct have neither inner nor outer, nor do they lie in the various directions. Discrimination is a void dharma, but common men are broiled by it. All dharmas are like this.
The Dharma Body is formless. Therefore, one sees it by no-seeing. Dharma is soundless. Therefore, one hears it by no-hearing. If one takes seeing as seeing, then there is something that is not seen. If one takes no-seeing as seeing, then there is nothing that is not seen. If one takes knowing as knowing, then there is something that is not known. If one takes no-knowing as knowing, then there is nothing that is not known. Insight is capable of knowing itself, and so it is not something that has knowing, and yet, because it knows vis-à-vis things, it is not something that lacks knowing. If one takes apprehending as apprehending, there is something that is not apprehended. If one takes no-apprehending as apprehending, then there is nothing that is not apprehended. If one takes 'is' as 'is', then there will be something that 'is not'. If one takes 'having-no-is' as 'is', then there is nothing that 'is not'. One gate of insight enters one hundred thousand gates of insight. One sees a pillar characteristic and makes the interpretation pillar. Observe that mind is the pillar dharma and no pillar characteristic exists. Therefore, when one sees a pillar, it is the apprehension of a pillar dharma. The seeing of all forms is like this.
excerpt from The Bodhidharma Anthology, J. L Broughton

Better?
Yes
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SteRo
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:56 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:47 am Better?
Yes
I don't think so. The early Zen teachings like the quoted are obsessed with emptiness. The later Zen teachings often are obsessed with "all is mind" and "true self" and thus are dangerously close to Advaita.

The Buddha's teachings are not obsessed with emptiness but teach the middle way which is appropriate because perfect emptiness and the conventional have to be integrated.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
auto
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by auto »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:25 pm Today, while watching some zen painting techniques, I found this ...
  • how to unfold my True Universal Self.
Yayyy!

... In this way Zen Brush Painting is both a practice of and expression of Enlightenment. The paintings are secondary.

1. It’s Not About You
Zen Brush painting is not about your talent, knowledge or skill. It’s not about you. It is about your True Universal Self, not the separate being you think and believe you are. Let all of that go. Empty yourself of yourself. Let the universe use this empty vessel to express itself through the brush, ink and paper. Let the painting unfold by itself.
...
Quote sounds
more like I do whatever I want and i don't bother that other people wants could conflict with mine, more so if they want me to do something I rejoice in thoughts of being secluded and alone from others.. and post about my mental state on social media.
Dan74
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Dan74 »

SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:12 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:56 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:47 am Better?
Yes
I don't think so. The early Zen teachings like the quoted are obsessed with emptiness. The later Zen teachings often are obsessed with "all is mind" and "true self" and thus are dangerously close to Advaita.

The Buddha's teachings are not obsessed with emptiness but teach the middle way which is appropriate because perfect emptiness and the conventional have to be integrated.
What is at play here, I believe, is selection bias. The texts that are often translated by the scholars are a selection made by them and influenced by a variety of factors, including selecting the most distinct, unusual and iconoclastic texts that may well be of minor relevance within the tradition itself. And then we paint a very skewed picture of what a living Zen practice is. That's one of the reasons why one does not get a proper understanding of a Buddhist tradition from books alone and why a genuine teacher is paramount.

Ven Huifeng made this point a number of times when he used to post online to counter people's misperception of Zen/Chan/Seon.
_/|\_
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confusedlayman
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:12 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:56 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:47 am Better?
Yes
I don't think so. The early Zen teachings like the quoted are obsessed with emptiness. The later Zen teachings often are obsessed with "all is mind" and "true self" and thus are dangerously close to Advaita.

The Buddha's teachings are not obsessed with emptiness but teach the middle way which is appropriate because perfect emptiness and the conventional have to be integrated.
zen doesnt contradict originial teaching. when they say mind is everyting they use conventional. actually zen teach dont get addicted to emptiness. if u addicted to emptiness u still caught up in perception through right effort. dont worry both and dont think if u worry both or not or dont think of thinking this or that.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Zen master teachings better than gotama buddhas teaching?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Dan74 wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:28 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:12 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:56 pm

Yes
I don't think so. The early Zen teachings like the quoted are obsessed with emptiness. The later Zen teachings often are obsessed with "all is mind" and "true self" and thus are dangerously close to Advaita.

The Buddha's teachings are not obsessed with emptiness but teach the middle way which is appropriate because perfect emptiness and the conventional have to be integrated.
What is at play here, I believe, is selection bias. The texts that are often translated by the scholars are a selection made by them and influenced by a variety of factors, including selecting the most distinct, unusual and iconoclastic texts that may well be of minor relevance within the tradition itself. And then we paint a very skewed picture of what a living Zen practice is. That's one of the reasons why one does not get a proper understanding of a Buddhist tradition from books alone and why a genuine teacher is paramount.

Ven Huifeng made this point a number of times when he used to post online to counter people's misperception of Zen/Chan/Seon.
There is also the problem of judging one school through the lens of another.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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