Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:20 pm "Vitaka Vicara"
is about the vanishing of residual 'thought investigation' and 'thought deliberation'.
One is not actively chasing after thoughts, one is merely allowing the investigation and deliberation of Papanca to slowly die off, cutting off the supply of Oxygen to breathing thought. It is a metaphor.
what do you mean by chasing after the thoughts? do you mean thinking about something you can't get rid of thinking about?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:04 pm Looks like OP's post addressing Four Buddhist Jhanas is starting to annoy you. Is it because it excludes your God Vishnu given "Arupa samapatthis'?
You must not worry, I still see many buddhists claim they meditate according to the Vishnu method, some even go to retreats to learn the method. I consider this "Stranger than fiction".
You wrote 
You don't have the right to disrespect those who practice yoga
I did not disrespect it more or less than the Tathagata did in AN 11.10 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In Sanda Sutta Buddha called such practitioners stupid meditators, I merely repeated him, I follow in his footsteps. Some follow the Buddha without paying much attention to what he instructed. I try my best to pay attention and I discreetly avoid the Hinduistic rituals.
Pl arrange for your own Post.  Why bother with mine that only relates to Buddha's teachings. You can title your post  
How from Vishnu's brain Arupa samapatthis emerged
or you can call it "Eight-fold path is nonsense, since it does not include so called hinduistc Arupas" whatever pleases your fancy. 
I will not interfere with your god given freedom to express your thoughts.
As for Vitaka Vicara, I am way past various translations, to waste my time debating it.
It is to be practiced, not debated. 
Besides 2nd jhana onwards these are non issues. You wrote
so how can you claim you have achieved jhana
I have not claimed anything, you are the one with claims. Thanks for the failing grade on Buddhist Jhanas, I cheerfully accept it, since Prof Auto got his PhD in Hindustan, and it all relates to
Hinduism
With love :candle:
I think 8 jhanas are needed as 5 6 7 8 helps to know the stress and imoermanence and removal of conciousness, perception and leads to nirodha so i think its part of the path .. 1st four enough for insight or physic powers
dont think
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto wrote 
what do you mean by chasing after the thoughts? do you mean thinking about something you can't get rid of thinking about?
Our thoughts are always foraging, for things to do, either hating or loving. Mind loves to engage this way, it is like some kids love the rain, so that they can play in the rain. For the meditator this kind of activity is a disruption. He tries to calm the rain of the mind, when he is succeeding we call it the first stage of jhana, diminishing of vitaka vicara, or slowing of investigation of thought and deliberating on thought. A spiritual path is free of such deliberation. By the second jhana, that effort has succeeded. 

Confusedlayman wrote 
I think 8 jhanas are needed as 5 6 7 8 helps to know the stress and imoermanence and removal of conciousness, perception and leads to nirodha so i think its part of the path .. 1st four enough for insight or physic powers
I know some buddhists view the path like this. How have you come to this view? 
Have you practiced the four jhanas as outlined in Sammanaphala sutta? Did it not succeed?
if not, why not? Did you find a flaw with that protocol? Tell me the flaw. Perhaps the flaw is in your method.
I recall your saying You view jhana as a state of immobilization. That however is a wrong view of the jhanas. Buddhist Jhana is not a method of removing consciousness.
It is a means of purification, 4th jhana is known as
Upeksa Sati Parisuddhi
It is best to get the view right before attempting Samma sati or Samma samadhi. Pl read MN 177 once more. Do not put the cart before the horse.
Why would anyone of us want to try these? Commentaries say they are meant for Aangamins and Arahants. Let those practice these, they have plenty of time left for fun. We poor creatures are immersed in Dukkha in the Kama world. I forgot to ask you "Are you an Anagamin or Arahant?" 
With love to all :candle:
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:37 pm Auto wrote 
what do you mean by chasing after the thoughts? do you mean thinking about something you can't get rid of thinking about?
Our thoughts are always foraging, for things to do, either hating or loving. Mind loves to engage this way, it is like some kids love the rain, so that they can play in the rain. For the meditator this kind of activity is a disruption. He tries to calm the rain of the mind, when he is succeeding we call it the first stage of jhana, diminishing of vitaka vicara, or slowing of investigation of thought and deliberating on thought. A spiritual path is free of such deliberation. By the second jhana, that effort has succeeded. 

Confusedlayman wrote 
I think 8 jhanas are needed as 5 6 7 8 helps to know the stress and imoermanence and removal of conciousness, perception and leads to nirodha so i think its part of the path .. 1st four enough for insight or physic powers
I know some buddhists view the path like this. How have you come to this view? 
Have you practiced the four jhanas as outlined in Sammanaphala sutta? Did it not succeed?
if not, why not? Did you find a flaw with that protocol? Tell me the flaw. Perhaps the flaw is in your method.
I recall your saying You view jhana as a state of immobilization. That however is a wrong view of the jhanas. Buddhist Jhana is not a method of removing consciousness.
It is a means of purification, 4th jhana is known as
Upeksa Sati Parisuddhi
It is best to get the view right before attempting Samma sati or Samma samadhi. Pl read MN 177 once more. Do not put the cart before the horse.
Why would anyone of us want to try these? Commentaries say they are meant for Aangamins and Arahants. Let those practice these, they have plenty of time left for fun. We poor creatures are immersed in Dukkha in the Kama world. I forgot to ask you "Are you an Anagamin or Arahant?" 
With love to all :candle:
I think you are so fond of conciousness and perception and dont want to expeirence the state beyond it. if budhha itself ddidnt abonden all the 5678 jhana and used it even during pari nibbana means it has its own benifit. some people may not want that practise but doesnt mean its not needed for all opthers.
dont think
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:37 pm Auto wrote
what do you mean by chasing after the thoughts? do you mean thinking about something you can't get rid of thinking about?
Our thoughts are always foraging, for things to do, either hating or loving. Mind loves to engage this way, it is like some kids love the rain, so that they can play in the rain. For the meditator this kind of activity is a disruption. He tries to calm the rain of the mind, when he is succeeding we call it the first stage of jhana, diminishing of vitaka vicara, or slowing of investigation of thought and deliberating on thought. A spiritual path is free of such deliberation. By the second jhana, that effort has succeeded.
Okay.
But perhaps these thoughts are 'active thinking with purpose'(cetanā) and really not vitakka?
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

The most magnificent shrine in Buddha's world is Dependent Origination, only if one constantly pays attention to it, its dynamic, its layout, not rote memorization, not in an academic sense, but in an ongoing fashion alongside one's running experience, down to earth. Buddha has supposedly said
"One who sees Dependent Origination sees me"
A constant sighting of Buddha!!!
This should inspire the faithful follower. How to do this?  by engaging in right meditation according to 8FP.
To do this all you need is a moment or longer. Moments add up. Last night I read a synopsis of 8FP on DW. It was inspiring. Only way to learn DO, is by dismantling it, via meditation. Contact, feeling, perception, these three play a crucial role in Samma Sati and Samma samadhi. Those three run parallel in the first three meditations of Samma Sati.
They blend as you begin jhana, by the second jhana contact is minimized, the state resonates with the tranquil lake in the foothills of Himalayas, self nourished.

By the 4th of Samma Sati or Samma samadhi phenomena arise and vane, seen is how suffering originates and ceases, but no one is suffering. All the factors of Bojjhangas come into fruition, a sheer mindfulness and a tranquility prevails, a friendly lovingness suffusing, a state of concentration, a dhamma investigation.

Comment inspired by bhante dhamma, a contributor to DW. I read it last night. An excerpt of his post. 
Sammā sati: kāyānupassanā, vedanānupassanā, cittānupassanā, dhammānupassanā
Sammā samādhi: vivicceva kāmehi vivicca 
akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaü savicaraü
vivekajaü pītisukhaü pañhamajjhānaü upasampajja 
viharati.
vitakkavicāranaü vūpasamā ajjhatt aü
sampasādanaü cetaso ekodibhāvaü avitakkaü
avicāraü samādhij aü pītisukhaü dutiyajjhānaü
upasampajja viharati.
pītiya ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca 
sampajāno sukhaü ca kāyena patisanvedeti yaü taü
ariyā ācikkhanti upekkhako satimā sukhavihari’ti 
tatiyajjhānam upasampajja viharati.
sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pub beva 
somanassadomanassānaü att hangamā adukkhaü
asukhaü upekkhāsati pārisuddhiü catutt hajjhānaü
upasampajja viharati
Dinsdale I also thought of your query, "Similarity between Samma sati and Samma samadhi" on another thread. So Thanks bhante dhamma and Dinsdale. :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Of jhanas and gods, and 'The Root of All Things'. A sutta that describes meditative states, also. Let us examine what it says of the 4 Buddhist jhanas, since this thread is concerned with the requisites of 8-fold path only, nothing less, nothing more.
Pulsar does not aim for the Brahma worlds.
Abbreviated excerpts regarding various meditators from MN 1
He perceives the gods of streaming Radiance
BB comments this is a  reference to second Jhana, and that this jhana also includes Gods of Limited Radiance and Gods of Immeasurable Radiance;
He  perceives the Gods of Refulgent Glory
A reference to 3rd jhana also includes the Gods of Limited Glory and Gods of Immeasurable Glory 
He perceives the gods of great Fruit
A reference to Plane of the fourth jhana.
Were these poetic elaboration of jhanic states?
Undoubtedly the persons experiencing jhanas, are suffused with a heavenly bliss sort of. Who can blame anyone for calling them Deva worlds? Now what puzzled me was the fourth Jhana is elsewhere described as that of Akaniastha gods...Is gods of great fruit a synonym for Akanishtha gods?
The word Akanistha is a very tricky word in the literature. This was once discussed on DW but that did not quite solve my puzzle.
To my rescue comes Maryla Falk. On p 164 Of "Nama Rupa" she writes
Akanistha bounds the region of fourth jhana- On this level bodhi is possible. Primitive  anagamin was an akanisthaga
 
"Woman you are amazing!" I think of Maryla Falk like this. Now she is dead and gone, perhaps in the world of Akanistha gods. She also writes
The results of our analysis of the primitive notion of anagaminphala shows that its bearer was originally urdhvasrotas, his sphere being the upward stream of the dharma, psychically actuated in the progression of the 4 ancient dhyanas, the upper limit of this sphere, bordering on the transcendental plane of Arahatpala
 
A flash of light....This book is a house of treasures for one who wants to explore primitive buddhism. Primitive not in a derogatory sense, but something like Buddhism before all that jazz.
A lovely Day or Night to all, while Corona is taking a turn to the worse over here.  :candle:
May the sorrows of the world end!
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Mindfulness! Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi is all about this, mindfulness is the saving grace Buddha taught us using various means. Unless we are mindful Corona will kill us, before it strikes us, we kinda live in a fear, although it is not visible on the surface "might I be a victim?"  This is the teaching of Kajjaniya sutta,
we are devoured by our feelings and our perceptions
 
When Samma sati is investigated deeply, like divers might, after lots of practice, searching the depth of the ocean, Not everyone can do that, until they acquire the skills, of sea diving.
Then one finds that it is a means of deconstructing the consciousness, check out the body, where contact begins...How did the Rupa come to be?
it is karma presenting itself. Get rid of the karma, that presents the Rupa, learn the means of executing it.
Check out the Vedana, how do they arise, how do they cease to be? 
Check out the Sanna. How do they arise how are they halted?
Once you master these ... you begin to see how dhammas arise and dhammas cease,
You are no more there nor here
That in a way is the deconstruction of consciousness, vinnana of split thought as we commonly experience, ceases during Dhammanupassana.
Samma Samadhi does not quite use the same road map, It is mapped differently one can say you take the high road, however when you have learned to sea dive using Samma sati, you kinds reach the same areas as explored by Samma samadhi or the four Buddhist Jhanas.
There is no pressing need to go beyond that, for one looking for the
"ending of Pain"
A peaceful Day to all my friends. I love the sense of humor prevailing in Dhammma wheel. For instance Whynotme wrote yesterday
those who get out of hell, make great strides in Dhamma
not quite in same words, in the discussion under 
Re: I'm really scared

We should all be so scared, hell that allows us to make great strides in Dhamma.
Thank you whynotme :candle:
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

I became curious of what others thought of causality after watching Sujato's 3rd video on Dependent Origination. Towards the end of teaching maybe ten before you can FF the video on youtube, he presents a curious scenario, a tumbler on a table being contacted by a finger, tumbler moves...and in his typical mirthful way asks his enchanted audience
"What is pushing the tumbler?"
to make story short it is not the finger but a system of magnets, invisible to the observer, and he goes this is your "take home" and sings Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Darn it!
Sujato was plain adorable, the way he clarified, DO never speaks of a Causality, it merely
says 
when this arises, then that arises
Then I run across this thread on DW a discussion on Causality.
Here is an excerpt. JackV writes 
I just have always had the belief that if one is to commit themselves to the path, to truly letting go then there is the potential of achieving liberation either in this life or at some point further. My emperical observations seem to lead me to thinking (currently) that it seems that effort (of the right kind) is useless until the factors which determine the result are ripe. We must continue to practice just in order to wait for it all to fall into place at some later date, that there is no Knowing or realisation to be had, simply a natural progression (or maybe regression) or change that then is the Extinguishing
Repeating
until the factors which determine the result are ripe?
Is that when Iddipada becomes fulfilled? In the 37 aids to awakening, can one factor be treated in isolation? we must remember this "until the factors that determine the result are ripe" we must be patient.
change that then is the Extinguishing

This morning I watched the blades of the fan come to a standstill, having whirled all night restlessly,
and I think "Is this how all the sorrow come to an end?" Slowly and surely, and so will Corona too.
Restfulness of meditation, Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi, when the whirling of the mind stops!

Some think that 4 jhanas is out of their league. Is it really? One person on DW did not think so, and this comment inspired me endlessly.
I did not want to copy entire comment since lengthy lines wear us out. For those who are interested here is the link, its title is Causality and Dhamma viewtopic.php?f=41&t=11388
Thanks for all the folks that make DW heaven on earth.
My gratitude to DNS and moderators, every participant and everyone that reads.  :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:17 pm Of jhanas and gods, and 'The Root of All Things'. A sutta that describes meditative states, also. Let us examine what it says of the 4 Buddhist jhanas, since this thread is concerned with the requisites of 8-fold path only, nothing less, nothing more.
Pulsar does not aim for the Brahma worlds.
Abbreviated excerpts regarding various meditators from MN 1
He perceives the gods of streaming Radiance
BB comments this is a  reference to second Jhana, and that this jhana also includes Gods of Limited Radiance and Gods of Immeasurable Radiance;
He  perceives the Gods of Refulgent Glory
A reference to 3rd jhana also includes the Gods of Limited Glory and Gods of Immeasurable Glory 
He perceives the gods of great Fruit
A reference to Plane of the fourth jhana.
Were these poetic elaboration of jhanic states?
Undoubtedly the persons experiencing jhanas, are suffused with a heavenly bliss sort of. Who can blame anyone for calling them Deva worlds? Now what puzzled me was the fourth Jhana is elsewhere described as that of Akaniastha gods...Is gods of great fruit a synonym for Akanishtha gods?
The word Akanistha is a very tricky word in the literature. This was once discussed on DW but that did not quite solve my puzzle.
To my rescue comes Maryla Falk. On p 164 Of "Nama Rupa" she writes
Akanistha bounds the region of fourth jhana- On this level bodhi is possible. Primitive  anagamin was an akanisthaga
 
"Woman you are amazing!" I think of Maryla Falk like this. Now she is dead and gone, perhaps in the world of Akanistha gods. She also writes
The results of our analysis of the primitive notion of anagaminphala shows that its bearer was originally urdhvasrotas, his sphere being the upward stream of the dharma, psychically actuated in the progression of the 4 ancient dhyanas, the upper limit of this sphere, bordering on the transcendental plane of Arahatpala
 
A flash of light....This book is a house of treasures for one who wants to explore primitive buddhism. Primitive not in a derogatory sense, but something like Buddhism before all that jazz.
A lovely Day or Night to all, while Corona is taking a turn to the worse over here.  :candle:
May the sorrows of the world end!
can u give full page to my mailbox. i read that boo but couldnt find it. i read the online pdf free which i think dont have all pages.
dont think
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Tale of Three fire sticks, and Saccaka the Nigantha's son. A comment on DW, from a while ago, brought me inspiration, in these unsettling times. In this thread, Binocular referred to Buddha's teaching to Saccaka. It motivated me to revisit MN 36.  Many months ago, It was Buddha's words to Saccaka that made me look into Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi. What I had been practicing was wrong, it was not bearing fruit. After reading Saccaka, I was on a mission to find the right ways of doing things. I began with MN 117. 
Binocular wrote to the person he was engaged with:
I think our ideas about what constitutes or what could constitute the Buddhadharma are so vastly different as to be incompatible.So much so that you think I have no interest in the Buddhadharma. I dare say you are very wrong on that point.
I have little interest in some interpretations of the buddhadharma, indeed
 
Me too. 
Binocular:
But since I am unsure of the final version of the Buddhadharma, and since the proponents of some interpretations are so loud, I expect them to convince me of their rightness. Which they resent, oddly enough.
If they're all so advanced and have it all figured out, then it shouldn't be hard for them to clarify things for me the way the Buddha did for Saccaka, with three fire sticks
Dear Binocular, I like the spirit with which you challenge friends on DW. I am not advanced, but I will  try to clarify to you, and in this attempt perhaps Dharma will clarify itself to me too.
Buddhadharma using the simile found in MN 36. Dharma is hard to follow, unless one is committed 100%.
  • One is gotta really want to, like how folks try hard at Physical therapy after a bad stroke being on a ventilator, having been on a coma (the coma of ignorance) 
The said simile occurred to Buddha spontaneously, never heard before.
Therefore it deserves our complete attention, can the Teacher teach Dharma using only three fire sticks?
I deduce the original fire stick represents one's consciousness, the second fire stick that is needed to rub the first one and create heat, it is a simile for right effort.

How does one light a fire using a fire stick, a bonfire to burn the defilements, set consciousness on fire until the defilements are extinguished???
Fire stick #1
is a wet sappy stick of wood immersed in water? like a mind plunged in Kamadhatu, decked in sensual paraphernalia, owner of a Hedge fund? his head filled with thoughts of screwing his clients, or on a different note, watching TV's endless presentations, feeding mind with trash?  Are the hedge fund manager or TV addict suited to explore Buddha's profound Dhamma, if they decide to go to a retreat and try meditation? How do you light a fire with a wet sappy piece of wood lying in water??? These minds even when withdrawn temporarily will remain wet and sappy, I modernized the simile to bring the message home to you. 
I learnt the hard way that meditation involves a change of lifestyle. One cannot do wonders in 2 weeks, maybe gain, release from home folks. Buddha dhamma is not designed for 2 week intervals, neither 6 month. But then some effort is better than no effort, perhaps?
The major hurdle is in giving up the unsavory lifestyle. 
Fire stick #2
wet sappy piece of wood lying on dry land, when rubbed against a dry stick, will not light a fire. This could be the mind of a meditator sitting in a secluded spot, but his thoughts are ceaselessly assailed by passion, outwardly quiet, inwardly disquiet. That mind is incapable of executing the goal of meditation on demand, or dismantling the chain of dependent origination, which is the goal of the recluse.
Fire stick #3
dry sapless piece of wood lying on dry land (meaning mind immersed in Samma sati, Samma Samadhi) such a mind can create an instant bonfire, move into the void at a moment's notice. Sutta wrote
who lives bodily withdrawn from sensual pleasure, desire affection, infatuation, thirst and fever for sensual pleasure fully abandoned

This can only happen during Kayanupassana or when practicing the 4 buddhist jhanas.

Elsewhere Buddha had said, something to the affect, "this spiritual life is irrelevant, unless it can act like the third fire stick" since we are on the topic of fire sticks. For real results, ongoing practice and engagement in right meditation is essential.
Samma Sati brings to life awakening factors i.e. Iddipada, that lifts one, on to the void at a moment's notice, Samma Samadhi.
Dear Binocular this is the way Pulsar sees Buddhadhamma, it is
how one wakes up from the Samsaric coma of ignorance
It is very hard, but we must give it our best shot. There is no other way of finding Buddhadharma, not thru endless dispute, not through endless intellectual exploration, but through Right meditation. MN 117

Binocular also wrote then it shouldn't be hard for them to clarify things for me the way the Buddha did for Saccaka I am not advanced by any means, I too have my broken moments, but with repeated practice it is getting better and better, less and less broken.
A text that inspired me. 
she who exclusively applies herself to that which she should apply herself, her alone do I call a Saiksa a learner
 The text continued,
but how can one say that the Aryan when she finds herself in a normal state and not in Samadhi, has it for her nature to apply herself? By reason of her intention: as the traveller who stops for a moment is nevertheless still called a traveller.  Or because the possessions of morality, absorption (samadhi) and prajna remain attached to her even when she is in a normal state
Thank you Binocular for your comments on both threads, they woke me up to Buddhadharma. The simile of three fire sticks come alive to me, full of meaning along with Buddha's genius.
Binocular's comments can be found in the following threads. https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... &start=120
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=36598&start=120
May the world be free of Corona fears...With love :candle:
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Saccaka of last comment, inspired me to explore the sutta further, an unforgettable teaching, for many reasons, Saccaka, the brash youth! 
We have characters like this, drifting around through all times,
like the wandering ascetics of Buddha's day, 
only difference the debating halls are not solid constructions, but in virtual halls they exude a certain charm. and bewilder many folks.
The point I want to really make is:
where Buddhas dwell

Buddhas always dwell in Samadhi, however when they do not interact with folks they dwell in the void or Sunya, it is not a vacuum, but a place empty of anything to do with "I" yet fulll of a bliss that the mundane cannot imagine.
Except from MN 36
Tathagata "I recall teaching the Dhamma to an assembly of many hundreds, and even then each person thinks of me: "The recluse Gotama is teaching the Dhamma especially for me"
But it should not be so regarded;
The Tathagata teaches the Dhamma to others only to give them knowledge.
When the talk is finished, then I steady my mind internally,
quieten it, bring it to singleness, and concentrate on the same
sign of concentration as before, in which I constantly
abide"
Perhaps it is the above claim of Buddha, that inspired an ancient buddhist school to exclaim:
  • Buddhas dwell perpetually in Samadhi
  • Buddhas never utter a single word but beings thinking they speak, jump for joy
Excerpt is from Lokottaravadins. Once upon a time, there was a school like this!
This comment blew me away, poetry being the origins of my heart.

André Bareau's "The Buddhist Schools of the small vehicle" refers to 38 buddhist sects. How different schools picked and chose what suited their fancy, from an original pool of information circulating among the various monastics. 
If you are the curious buddhist, and wonder about stuff, you will emerge a new person, with a brand new understanding of Theravada or Mahayana, once you read this publication.
Theravada can be properly understood only in the context of its background, its history.

Back to MN 36,  "How Buddha Dwelled in the Void" and how everyone in the audience could not stop thinking
"Buddha addresses me personally? The length and breath of the ego, the inescapability of such. Only meditation can rid us of all of the pervading stench of "I"
PS History of Theravada is not known claims A. Wynne in one of his talks. Pl. visit Youtube if you are interested, and  type in "the ur-text of the Pali Tipitaka" Alex-Wynne explains why.
I love him and hate him, (he helps loosen my rigid views)
he is typical of a good brash young scholar, I give him credit for widening my understanding of BuddhaDharma, I do not always agree with him.
He has several other talks on "Early Buddhist meditation" on Youtube, worth listening to.
With love to all, in these hard times :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Looking at Buddhadhamma in a practically helpful manner, down to earth, to us laymen, absolutely conventionally, (Buddha taught for householders), yet without losing sight of the absolute (what he taught the holy folks), since only therein, lies the freedoms from disappointment.
Before one embarks on the absolute, one has to perfect the conventional life style, according to Buddhadhamma.
DO is indispensable, it guides the householder: when this (A) arises, that (B) arises. But, but... by allowing A to arise, one allows a whole bunch of other factors to arise of which one is not  percipient of in addition to B, the obvious factor.
So should we let A arise?
Subsequently, when C arises one might say "This is not what I anticipated when I intended A to arise.
Insidious unavoidable acts of DO! Here's where kamma comes into play. Ways of kamma  are unfathomable the Teacher said, so one must not speculate. 
Beware of life! It is a trickster...it will trick you into places, where kamma is awaiting, darkly, or lightly, one way of putting it, caution is to be exerted, "don't touch the hot plate".
However at the first opportunity, when the beast pounces upon one, benevolence, self restraint, kindness towards others help.
Plenty of good doable stuff, buddha spoke of:
  • not being rude, not being suspicious, riddance of doubt, not relying on rituals
  • non-false views, non-hatred, non-greed, non-odd talk, non-evil talk, non-duplicity
  • an attitude of cheerful acceptance towards what may come
these pay off. 
All this is possible in non-monastic life, with aid of constant watchfulness. Once you gain the footing on conventional goodness, and master it, rest is a piece of cake,
like sitting down to Rightly meditate MN 117,  as if you were the monastic, for one moment or endless moments, at a moment's notice. 
In an absolute sense time does not exist.  So if you have sat down  to accomplish the absolute, why bother about time. In your very home, Samma sati and Samma samadhi (4 buddhist jhanas): one can build a solid foundation to exit Samsara. In the final endeavour, residual kammas are abolished. Think of Angulimala.
Kamma
is thought in action, cetana operating thru bodily, verbal aspects, virtuous and non virtuous elements associated with enjoyment of being.
Last two steps of 8fp are enabling
Perhaps we have been like Angulimala in our samsaric travels, but see the bright side, Buddha shows us how to build the powerhouse, to nuke the kamma, that keeps us returning to Samsara.
He stressed 37 aids to awakening, while exiting, seemingly human. Some say Tathagata means "thus come, thus gone". Did he ever exist? It is irrelevant at this point, is it not? 
The sight of sun, that removes the weariness of life. Four Jhanas a soothing herb.
PS Dear SDC thanks for letting 'Time' sink in.

PSS One day this too will come to pass, blessings to all the doctors and healthcare professionals!
mostly to DNC who keeps the site alive.
With love  :candle:
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Do anyone think jhana pleasure is due to hormones changes? I highly doubt it...


doing metta compassion etc means certain hormones related to it are spiked up and flowing in to our system (body). but anyone think if one enters jhana.. its still hormone change or independent of hormone change?

We all know that becoming stage in dependent origination. when one enters jhana, in becoming stage is new brahma body created and since 1st two jhanas have physical body perception its brahma of 1st two realms physical body and 3rd jhana is mental body pleasure so its light (less or no physical body perception)???

If jhana means human body hormonal changes, then i highly doubt brahma and higher beings have same physical body with same dopamine, serotonin etc? can someone clarify this?
dont think
Pulsar
Posts: 1038
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

"Like the moon" Then the Blessed one waved his hand in the space and said
"Bhikkhus, just as this hand does not get caught in space, is not held fast by it, is not bound by it, so when a bhikkhu approaches families his mind does not get caught..."
An excerpt from Kassapasamyutta. SN 16.2
Above is a rare gesture by the Buddha, this gesture inspired me to no end. You can read the rest of the sutta for context. As for me it helps me understand the 4th jhana, the geniune meditator, does not allow impinging thoughts (approaching families) to distract him, a state of impurtability recurrent in the 4th Buddhist jhana.

I find Buddha's words are magical like this, even his hand gesture. 

Dear Confusedlayman: Perhaps you should post your question on a new thread. I do not think there has been any research done on the 4 buddhist jhanas by Endocrinologists, or that meditators have succumbed themselves to such experimentation.
OP intended this thread exclusively for 4 buddhist jhanas, and related material, in a soteriological sense.
With love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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