Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 4:42 pmbuddha said he entered and remained in jhana so he is taking self view.
a buddha is free from self-view. if Buddha says "he" entered jhana, this is just conventional speech when speaking to others
confusedlayman wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 4:42 pmwhatever we speak in forum is conventional way and conventional designation as its hard to type in ultimate reality.
your posts are not conventional reality because you appear unable to post in the language of ultimate reality
confusedlayman wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 4:42 pmu never answered it instead u chose to play with language as usual.
its is the sense object (ayatana) named 'confusedlayman' that never answered question. please answer the question, below:
if vitaka and vikara are background thinking pertaining to first jhana, what is the vitaka and vikara thinking about? :shrug:
thanks
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Re: Jhana

Post by Dhammanando »

frank k wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 4:56 pmCould you share your English translation of vitakka and vicara of the first jhana formula,
My preferred rendering would be "vitakka" and "vicāra".

That is, unless I'm talking to someone completely new to Buddhism I prefer to import technical terms rather than to translate them. This is the policy adopted by the Thai, Burmese and Sinhalese translators of the Tipiṭaka, and was also emulated by the Franco-Belgian scholars Poussin and Lamotte in their translations of Sanskrit Buddhist texts. Though I don't expect it to catch on in the anglophone world, I do think it's the best way to go about things.
frank k wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 4:56 pmand how you understand the meaning of it?
I take the terms as they are defined in the Atthasālinī (Dhs-a. 114-115; The Expositor I. 151-3, link).

And from your earlier post...
frank k wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 12:18 pmOne would assume you support B. Sujato's interpretation?
Not having read any books by the Sujāto-Brahmavaṃso-Brahmali trio, I don't know to precisely what extent our understandings of jhāna coincide. But on the two points where you and the trio are in dispute (i.e., on whether in the first jhāna there can be (1) five-sense-door experience and (2) thinking about a plurality of ārammaṇas), I find their reading of the suttas to be more compelling.
frank k wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 12:18 pmIf not, what is your position? I've publicly and via private message asked you number of times on this and you've not answered so far.
Sorry, but I seldom reply to private messages unless they're concerned with moderatorial matters. As for public threads about jhāna (especially debates on what counts as "true jhāna"), I almost never post to them unless it's merely to offer some minor note of clarification that won't get me embroiled in a never-ending debate.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Jhana

Post by frank k »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 4:03 am ...
Thanks Ven. D. for clarifying your position. I can understand not wanting to get pulled into never ending discussions. The Abhidhamma commentary passage you quote for V&V seems to be the basis for Vism.'s gloss of first jhana vitakka and vicara.

Do you find that the Abhidhamma cmy. you quote consistent with the canonical abhidhamma? Book 1 and book 2, especially the Te Ab gloss of vitakka and vicara in first jhana?

I'm not trying to engage you in a never ending debate, if you've answered this question before please point me to a link with your explanation. I do feel it's fair to ask that you to express your views on this one time for the public record. From what I've studied, very carefully and repeatedly, the Vism. and Ab cmy. passage you cite clearly contradict EBT, Vimutti magga, and even canonical Abhidhamma.
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Re: Jhana

Post by Dhammanando »

frank k wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 3:30 pmDo you find that the Abhidhamma cmy. you quote consistent with the canonical abhidhamma? Book 1 and book 2, especially the Te Ab gloss of vitakka and vicara in first jhana?
Yes.
frank k wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 3:30 pmI'm not trying to engage you in a never ending debate,
Whether you are trying to, or whether you are not trying to, it would be unavoidable if I let myself continue to engage with you, for this is a matter on which my view is settled and on which I'm not open to changing my mind. As far as I can tell this is the case with you too. That is, if you were open to changing your mind, I think your lengthy exchanges on Discourse Central with venerables Sujāto and Brahmali, and Sylvester (especially Sylvester) would have been more than enough to persuade you to do so.
frank k wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 3:30 pmI do feel it's fair to ask that you to express your views on this one time for the public record.
Sure, it's fair to ask. And it's my prerogative to answer with silence if I see no good likely to issue from a discussion.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Jhana

Post by nirodh27 »

(sorry for my English)

What strikes me the most is that it seems to me that no sides acknowledges that both interpretations are actually possibile and have their strenghts and that the matter, and this is very unfortunate because I think everyone wants to know exactly how to practice in the way the Buddha prescribed 2500 years ago, cannot be decided only by sutta references. I have some experience on New Testament studies and there are issues that scholars agrees that cannot be definitively settled and we can only reason about what is more probable or build other theories on this starting uncertainty. Of course, one side could be totally wrong and the other right, but it doesn't seem to me that here we are in such a situation.

The Jhanas and vitakka&vicara true nature seems one of those issues, further complicated by the fact that the stance can change if one considers the Agamas or not (MN19 parallel changes the game in this case I think) or the attitude that one has about the commentaries. Personal preferences and temper also plays a major role.

It would be very interesting to read the Sylvester - Frankk debate, I hope that someone can link that. I can find post, but if there's a lenghty discussion, I would love to read it.

After all, seems that this debate is more an exercise about Dukkha, since it is very frustrating to not have definitive and clear answers on such an important topic.
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Re: Jhana

Post by mikenz66 »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:26 am It would be very interesting to read the Sylvester - Frankk debate, I hope that someone can link that. I can find post, but if there's a lenghty discussion, I would love to read it.
This is probably the thread you want:
Hearing sounds in samādhi, jhāna
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/he ... jhana/7784

:heart:
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:26 am both interpretations are actually possible...
Hi there. My impression is what is overlooked in the debate about vitakka & vicara is the mind has ekaggata in the 1st jhana, which means the mind has the foundation of perfect stability.
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Re: Jhana

Post by Dhammanando »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:26 am (sorry for my English)
Ciao. Il tuo inglese è buono.
nirodh27 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:26 amWhat strikes me the most is that it seems to me that no sides acknowledges that both interpretations are actually possibile and have their strenghts and that the matter, and this is very unfortunate because I think everyone wants to know exactly how to practice in the way the Buddha prescribed 2500 years ago, cannot be decided only by sutta references.
As the disagreement doesn't involve any difference of opinion over how the preliminary practice of samatha-bhāvanā is to be carried out, one always has the option of just going ahead with the work while maintaining an agnostic stance on the contested questions about what jhāna is like.
nirodh27 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:26 amIt would be very interesting to read the Sylvester - Frankk debate, I hope that someone can link that.
Here are links to a few of the threads. I'm afraid some are rather lengthy, but you can save time by skipping all the ill-informed posts from the Vimalaramsi and Brasington followers and just attending to the posts of Sylvester, Sujāto and Brahmali (in effect representing the Theravada position as it was at the time of the Third Council), and those of Frank and Silence (in effect representing the position taken at the same council by the Pubbaseliya school).

As at the Third Council, both sides believe their position to be the correct reading of the suttas and neither side is basing its case on later works like the Visuddhimagga. Unfortunately one of the two Pubbaseliya posters (yes, I mean you, Frank!) insists on begging the question by calling his own view "the straight EBT interpretation", and poisoning the well (and begging the question) by dubbing his opponents' view "the revised Visuddhimagga interpretation".

Hearing sounds in jhāna

Vitakka and vicāra (jhāna factors)

Pīti, sukha, kāya in jhāna: mental, physical, or both?

Can you hear sound and feel body in jhāna?

EBTs which indicate the experience of the body disappears while meditating?

‘parisuddhena cetasā pariyodātena’ and ‘citte parisuddhe pariyodāte’

And if your enthusiasm hasn't waned after the above, you'll probably find a few more with google:

google search
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:26 am (sorry for my English)

What strikes me the most is that it seems to me that no sides acknowledges that both interpretations are actually possibile and have their strenghts and that the matter, and this is very unfortunate because I think everyone wants to know exactly how to practice in the way the Buddha prescribed 2500 years ago, cannot be decided only by sutta references. I have some experience on New Testament studies and there are issues that scholars agrees that cannot be definitively settled and we can only reason about what is more probable or build other theories on this starting uncertainty. Of course, one side could be totally wrong and the other right, but it doesn't seem to me that here we are in such a situation.

The Jhanas and vitakka&vicara true nature seems one of those issues, further complicated by the fact that the stance can change if one considers the Agamas or not (MN19 parallel changes the game in this case I think) or the attitude that one has about the commentaries. Personal preferences and temper also plays a major role.

It would be very interesting to read the Sylvester - Frankk debate, I hope that someone can link that. I can find post, but if there's a lenghty discussion, I would love to read it.

After all, seems that this debate is more an exercise about Dukkha, since it is very frustrating to not have definitive and clear answers on such an important topic.
the following things are dead certain with unshakable confidence about jhana.

5 sence off in all jhana. if u hear sound in 1st jhana then redo it is not fully stable.

no thikning from 2nd jhana onwards

3rd jhana body perception of weight/body presence completly off leaving with only sukha and awareness of sukha with no heavyness

body is paralysed or immbolized from negibouring concentration ending and before of 1st jhana entering to all jhanas.

emerging from jhana is coming to neibourhood concentration but body is still paralysed and 5 sence off.

if u emerge from 3rd jhana or above, ur concentration will be so sharp without laziness and move front and back and listens to u. (i beleive this concentration will cut off ignorance and used for arhantship)

if u come out of body paralysis by moving the tip of leg or something then access concentration itself is lost and u back to this world.

Jhana will not be addictive like sensual pleasure even thought jhana is far high and cannot be compared to cheap sensual pelasures.

even if a evil man subdue the five hinderance he can attain jhana unless he did 5 henious crime which karmically prevents him.

i like to speak with someone who have personal expeirence.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 5:16 pmthe following things are dead certain with unshakable confidence about jhana.
unshakable confidence occurs with experience.
confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 5:16 pmi like to speak with someone who have personal expeirence.
unshakable confidence doesn't need to speak to another with experience

U still have not answered the question asked to u: what does the mind think about in the 1st jhana?

Thanks
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:10 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 5:16 pmthe following things are dead certain with unshakable confidence about jhana.
unshakable confidence occurs with experience.
confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 5:16 pmi like to speak with someone who have personal expeirence.
unshakable confidence doesn't need to speak to another with experience

U still have not answered the question asked to u: what does the mind think about in the 1st jhana?

Thanks
in 1st jhana normally mind can think in terms of mind voice,, ok now there is jhana lets stop thinking to enter next or it can think of any thing related to 1st jhana or lets enter 2nd if u use number classfication. from 2nd jhana it knows what the present exp is but it wont have mind voice thinking. thats the difference. in 1st jhana there can be thkning that 5 sense exp not there how amazing etc...
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:24 am in 1st jhana there can be thkning that 5 sense exp not there how amazing etc...
no. in jhana, the mind, locked into ekaggata, can only be drawn to the jhana factors, such as rapture & happiness. it can only explore (vicara) what it is conscious of rather than ponder & think about what it is not conscious of. Ajahn Brahm said:
It is helpful to know, then, that within a Jhana:

1. There is no possibility of thought;

2. No decision making process is available;

3. There is no perception of time;

4. Consciousness is non-dual, making comprehension inaccessible;

5. Yet one is very, very aware, but only of bliss that doesn't move; and

6. The five senses are fully shut off, and only the sixth sense, mind, is in operation.

One-pointedness (Ekaggatha). The third factor of Jhana is one-­pointedness, ekaggatha. One-pointedness describes the mindfulness that is so sharply focused on a minute area of existence. It is one-pointed in space because it only sees the point source of bliss, together with a small area surrounding the bliss caused by the First Jhana wobble. It is one-pointed in time because it only perceives the present moment, so exclusively and precisely that all notion of time completely disappears. And it is one-pointed in phenomena because it only knows the mental object of pitisukha, and is totally oblivious to the world of the five senses and one's physical body.

The distinguishing feature of the bliss of First Jhana is that it is fueled by the complete absence of all five-sense activities. When the five senses shut down, including all echoes of the five senses manifesting as thoughts, then one has left the world of the body and material things (Kamaloka) and entered the world of pure mind (Rupaloka).

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
Since, in jhana, the the mind is totally oblivious to the world of the five senses, in neither experiences the world of the five senses nor the shutting off of the five senses. the mind only knows bliss & the ekaggata mental image, that is all.

Its like jumping out of an airplane and falling to earth before you pull the parachute. when you are falling to earth from an airplane, you are not thinking: "i am not swimming in water". you only experience what is there rather than what is not there :smile:
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Re: Jhana

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DooDoot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:32 am
confusedlayman wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:24 am in 1st jhana there can be thkning that 5 sense exp not there how amazing etc...
no. in jhana, the mind, locked into ekaggata, can only be drawn to the jhana factors, such as rapture & happiness. it can only explore (vicara) what it is conscious of rather than ponder & think about what it is not conscious of. Ajahn Brahm said:
It is helpful to know, then, that within a Jhana:

1. There is no possibility of thought;

2. No decision making process is available;

3. There is no perception of time;

4. Consciousness is non-dual, making comprehension inaccessible;

5. Yet one is very, very aware, but only of bliss that doesn't move; and

6. The five senses are fully shut off, and only the sixth sense, mind, is in operation.

One-pointedness (Ekaggatha). The third factor of Jhana is one-­pointedness, ekaggatha. One-pointedness describes the mindfulness that is so sharply focused on a minute area of existence. It is one-pointed in space because it only sees the point source of bliss, together with a small area surrounding the bliss caused by the First Jhana wobble. It is one-pointed in time because it only perceives the present moment, so exclusively and precisely that all notion of time completely disappears. And it is one-pointed in phenomena because it only knows the mental object of pitisukha, and is totally oblivious to the world of the five senses and one's physical body.

The distinguishing feature of the bliss of First Jhana is that it is fueled by the complete absence of all five-sense activities. When the five senses shut down, including all echoes of the five senses manifesting as thoughts, then one has left the world of the body and material things (Kamaloka) and entered the world of pure mind (Rupaloka).

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
Since, in jhana, the the mind is totally oblivious to the world of the five senses, in neither experiences the world of the five senses nor the shutting off of the five senses. the mind only knows bliss & the ekaggata mental image, that is all.

Its like jumping out of an airplane and falling to earth before you pull the parachute. when you are falling to earth from an airplane, you are not thinking: "i am not swimming in water". you only experience what is there rather than what is not there :smile:
it is easy, just wait till thoughts or space coming up what is past, present or future, you will not notice what your senses are doing and not notice about what your body is doing whereas the 3 times is going to pierce the body and giving out aversive or affective sensation and besides that you can then one pointedly cling to the point of impact.. there is more but the idea is the list of things what are written above can easily misled neophytes to try to do the impossible whereas there is explanation what concurs all the points in a easy way, but yeah let the people try sitting and waiting till their senses stop or shut off while senses have their own life-source(jivita) independent of this waiting and dead calmness what doesn't even take into account what is going on internally.
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Re: Jhana

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DooDoot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:32 am
confusedlayman wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:24 am in 1st jhana there can be thkning that 5 sense exp not there how amazing etc...
no. in jhana, the mind, locked into ekaggata, can only be drawn to the jhana factors, such as rapture & happiness. it can only explore (vicara) what it is conscious of rather than ponder & think about what it is not conscious of. Ajahn Brahm said:
It is helpful to know, then, that within a Jhana:

1. There is no possibility of thought;

2. No decision making process is available;

3. There is no perception of time;

4. Consciousness is non-dual, making comprehension inaccessible;

5. Yet one is very, very aware, but only of bliss that doesn't move; and

6. The five senses are fully shut off, and only the sixth sense, mind, is in operation.

One-pointedness (Ekaggatha). The third factor of Jhana is one-­pointedness, ekaggatha. One-pointedness describes the mindfulness that is so sharply focused on a minute area of existence. It is one-pointed in space because it only sees the point source of bliss, together with a small area surrounding the bliss caused by the First Jhana wobble. It is one-pointed in time because it only perceives the present moment, so exclusively and precisely that all notion of time completely disappears. And it is one-pointed in phenomena because it only knows the mental object of pitisukha, and is totally oblivious to the world of the five senses and one's physical body.

The distinguishing feature of the bliss of First Jhana is that it is fueled by the complete absence of all five-sense activities. When the five senses shut down, including all echoes of the five senses manifesting as thoughts, then one has left the world of the body and material things (Kamaloka) and entered the world of pure mind (Rupaloka).

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
Since, in jhana, the the mind is totally oblivious to the world of the five senses, in neither experiences the world of the five senses nor the shutting off of the five senses. the mind only knows bliss & the ekaggata mental image, that is all.

Its like jumping out of an airplane and falling to earth before you pull the parachute. when you are falling to earth from an airplane, you are not thinking: "i am not swimming in water". you only experience what is there rather than what is not there :smile:
that is what exactly i said. in 1st jhana mind thinking only thing related to 1st jhana. there is no hearing and 5 sence activity but wont think of 5 sence activity as such it thinks about the absence of it.
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 5:37 pm that is what exactly i said.
its not what you said. you said in 1st jhana there can be thkning:

* "5 sense exp not there" ....

* "how amazing etc "...

also, I never said there is "thinking" about rapture & happiness. I said the mind "explores" ("vicara") the rapture & happiness. I did not say the mind "thinks about" rapture & happiness
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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