Rebirth is ended

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sentinel
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Rebirth is ended

Post by sentinel »

What does it means by rebirth is ended ?
After aggregates dissolution and it does not re-arise and no future birth ?

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānāti.

Susīma, do you see that rebirth is a condition for old age and death?”
‘Jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇan’ti, susima, passasī”ti?

“Yes, sir.”
“Evaṃ, bhante”.

“Do you see that continued existence is a condition for rebirth?”
“‘Bhavapaccayā jātī’ti, susima, passasī”ti?

“Yes, sir.”
“Evaṃ, bhante”.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by Kim OHara »

sentinel wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 6:39 am What does it means by rebirth is ended ?
After aggregates dissolution and it does not re-arise and no future birth ?
That's right. Go where the candle flame goes when it's blown out.

:candle:
Kim
sentinel
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by sentinel »

Kim OHara wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:41 am
sentinel wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 6:39 am What does it means by rebirth is ended ?
After aggregates dissolution and it does not re-arise and no future birth ?
That's right. Go where the candle flame goes when it's blown out.

:candle:
Kim
Does "No return to any state of existence" similar to extinguishing of five aggregates hence annihilation in contrast to existence (of five aggregates) ?



Ps . Asankhata ie that which is of its own without any dependence on conditioned phenomena , isnt that not totally nothingness , annihilation ?!
How can asankhata not dependence on anything , being known by the mind ?
If the mind can knows it , this means they are somehow in connection or in relation .
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confusedlayman
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by confusedlayman »

sentinel wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 6:39 am What does it means by rebirth is ended ?
After aggregates dissolution and it does not re-arise and no future birth ?

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānāti.

Susīma, do you see that rebirth is a condition for old age and death?”
‘Jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇan’ti, susima, passasī”ti?

“Yes, sir.”
“Evaṃ, bhante”.

“Do you see that continued existence is a condition for rebirth?”
“‘Bhavapaccayā jātī’ti, susima, passasī”ti?

“Yes, sir.”
“Evaṃ, bhante”.
can u be aware and expeirence things because of functioning of these aggregates? if aggregates dont fuction or dont arise, will there be experience? if no, it is unconditioned. only when there is experience, there is movement of mind depending on arising and cessation of expeirence.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 8:55 am can u be aware and expeirence things because of functioning of these aggregates? if aggregates dont fuction or dont arise, will there be experience? if no, it is unconditioned.
The Buddha's 1st words were his mind attained the unconditioned. Then he lived for another 45 years of consciousness experience.
1st words of Buddha wrote:153. Through many a birth in samsara have I wandered in vain, seeking the builder of this house. Repeated birth is indeed suffering!

154. O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

Dhammapada
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Last edited by DooDoot on Thu May 28, 2020 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SteRo
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by SteRo »

sentinel wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 6:39 am What does it means by rebirth is ended ?
Cessation of ignorance.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
santa100
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by santa100 »

sentinel wrote:How can asankhata not dependence on anything , being known by the mind ?
If the mind can knows it , this means they are somehow in connection or in relation.
Just because there's a relationship doesn't mean dependency. Using that all famous Raft simile, when a person uses the raft (the Path and all its training methods) to get to the other shore, there's some relationship between the shore, the raft, the person, the water, etc. but that doesn't mean the "other shore" shares the exact same dependencies like the other entities.
auto
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:24 am
sentinel wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 6:39 am What does it means by rebirth is ended ?
Cessation of ignorance.
Cessation of cittasankhara's. The reasons you got these attainments at first place will end.
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato wrote: They understand:So evaṃ pajānāti:‘If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of infinite space, my mind would develop accordingly.‘imañce ahaṃ upekkhaṃ evaṃ parisuddhaṃ evaṃ pariyodātaṃ ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasaṃhareyyaṃ, tadanudhammañca cittaṃ bhāveyyaṃ;
But that is conditioned.saṅkhatametaṃ.
If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of infinite consciousness …Imañce ahaṃ upekkhaṃ evaṃ parisuddhaṃ evaṃ pariyodātaṃ viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ upasaṃhareyyaṃ, tadanudhammañca cittaṃ bhāveyyaṃ;saṅkhatametaṃ.nothingness …Imañce ahaṃ upekkhaṃ evaṃ parisuddhaṃ evaṃ pariyodātaṃ ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ upasaṃhareyyaṃ, tadanudhammañca cittaṃ bhāveyyaṃ;saṅkhatametaṃ.

neither perception nor non-perception, my mind would develop accordingly.Imañce ahaṃ upekkhaṃ evaṃ parisuddhaṃ evaṃ pariyodātaṃ nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ upasaṃhareyyaṃ, tadanudhammañca cittaṃ bhāveyyaṃ;
But that is conditioned.’saṅkhatametan’ti.

They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.So neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.
Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaṃyeva parinibbāyati.

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānāti.
thus extinction is the ultimate wisdom - non-ignorance(unshakeable), while these attainments are not.
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato wrote: In their ignorance, they used to acquire attachments.Tasseva kho pana pubbe aviddasuno upadhī honti samattā samādinnā.
Those have been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so they are unable to arise in the future.Tyāssa pahīnā honti ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṃ anuppādadhammā.
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Nicolas
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by Nicolas »

sentinel wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 6:39 am What does it means by rebirth is ended ?
After aggregates dissolution and it does not re-arise and no future birth ?
Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta (MN 9) wrote: The birth of beings in the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation in a womb, generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact—this is called birth.
Dhaniya Sutta (Snp 1.2) wrote: I never again will lie in the womb
SteRo
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 1:50 pm
SteRo wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:24 am
sentinel wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 6:39 am What does it means by rebirth is ended ?
Cessation of ignorance.
Cessation of cittasankhara's. The reasons you got these attainments at first place will end.
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato wrote: They understand:So evaṃ pajānāti:‘If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of infinite space, my mind would develop accordingly.‘imañce ahaṃ upekkhaṃ evaṃ parisuddhaṃ evaṃ pariyodātaṃ ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasaṃhareyyaṃ, tadanudhammañca cittaṃ bhāveyyaṃ;
But that is conditioned.saṅkhatametaṃ.
If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of infinite consciousness …Imañce ahaṃ upekkhaṃ evaṃ parisuddhaṃ evaṃ pariyodātaṃ viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ upasaṃhareyyaṃ, tadanudhammañca cittaṃ bhāveyyaṃ;saṅkhatametaṃ.nothingness …Imañce ahaṃ upekkhaṃ evaṃ parisuddhaṃ evaṃ pariyodātaṃ ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ upasaṃhareyyaṃ, tadanudhammañca cittaṃ bhāveyyaṃ;saṅkhatametaṃ.

neither perception nor non-perception, my mind would develop accordingly.Imañce ahaṃ upekkhaṃ evaṃ parisuddhaṃ evaṃ pariyodātaṃ nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ upasaṃhareyyaṃ, tadanudhammañca cittaṃ bhāveyyaṃ;
But that is conditioned.’saṅkhatametan’ti.

They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.So neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.
Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaṃyeva parinibbāyati.

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānāti.
thus extinction is the ultimate wisdom - non-ignorance(unshakeable), while these attainments are not.
Nice quotes, thank you.

There's a bit of an issue with "They understand: ...(and what follows)" but hey, that's sutta!
auto wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 1:50 pm
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato wrote: In their ignorance, they used to acquire attachments.Tasseva kho pana pubbe aviddasuno upadhī honti samattā samādinnā.
Those have been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so they are unable to arise in the future.Tyāssa pahīnā honti ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṃ anuppādadhammā.
Great.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
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cappuccino
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by cappuccino »

And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis.

For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here.

This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining.



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cappuccino
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by cappuccino »

sentinel wrote: hence annihilation in contrast to existence
incorrect
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by DooDoot »

Nicolas wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:35 pm
Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta (MN 9) wrote: The birth of beings in the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation in a womb, generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact—this is called birth.

Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho
Where does the Pali say "precipitation in a womb"? :shrug:
SN 25.2 wrote:...thoughts are impermanent, perishing, and changing.

dhammā aniccā vipariṇāmino aññathābhāvino.

Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person.

Yo, bhikkhave, ime dhamme evaṃ saddahati adhimuccati, ayaṃ vuccati saddhānusārī, okkanto sammattaniyāmaṃ, sappurisabhūmiṃ okkanto, vītivatto puthujjanabhūmiṃ;

https://suttacentral.net/sn25.2/en/sujato
Alternate translation below:
...thoughts are impermanent, perishing, and changing.

Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve precipitated in a womb at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve precipitated in a womb at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person.


:roll: ;)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pegembara
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by pegembara »

sentinel wrote: hence annihilation in contrast to existence
With regards to final nibbana:

True, if you believe in existence and therefore by convention.
The same event viewed through different lenses.

Bhavatanha : 'craving for (eternal) existence'
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/bhavatanha
What? Do you assume a 'living being,' Mara?
Do you take a position?
This is purely a pile of fabrications.
Here no living being
can be pinned down.

Just as when, with an assemblage of parts,
there's the word,
chariot,
even so when aggregates are present,
there's the convention of
living being.


For only stress is what comes to be;
stress, what remains & falls away.
Nothing but stress comes to be.
Nothing ceases but stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
justindesilva
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Re: Rebirth is ended

Post by justindesilva »

cappuccino wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 6:50 pm
sentinel wrote: hence annihilation in contrast to existence
incorrect
Nirvana is not annihilation. It in fact is the ending of Tanha, or one may call it annihilation of Tanha too. Nir vana literally means no desires.
When desires or Tanha ends there is no condition of perceptions ( vingnana) to cling on to the next Bhava, or existence with elements ( dhathu) of Kama.
Perhaps may I bring in here that with Nirvana a state of mind, where energies that goes on in samsara stops its reactions in the universe and settles as a conservation of energy, without an annihilation, probably in disagreement with masters of orthodox.
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