Monastics protesting social injustice

[SarathW]

This is a rather late comment from me in this topic - but I remember a number of years ago my late Tibetan Buddhist teacher giving a talk , and at the end of it someone asked him what was his view about going on marches and demonstrations of one kind or another, including about nuclear weapons.

His reply was "First we have to learn how to diffuse our own bombs".

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Interesting of you to inadvertently call the porn-actor by the name of George Floyd an outcast at this time, but your words are not for me to say or censor.

Why are you spreading fake news? I said no such thing.

Inadvertently you did... (emphasis mine)

If you want to compare modern America with ancient India, then think of being white as belonging to one of the higher castes, and being black or mixed race as being of low caste. The Buddha frequently spoke about the evils of the caste system. It is clear that by behaviour such as killing black people for nothing, stealing by tax evasion, committing adultery with porn stars, lying, abusing, etc., are what makes one an outcaste, and not being Black, Hispanic, or Puerto Rican.

Metta,
Paul.

When someone can read into a clear, unambiguous statement whatever they have a mind to read into it, even quoting the texts is of little use.

Perhaps if you read it in the clear light of day when you have woken up, you will see that I merely listed some examples of breaking the precepts of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, and wrong speech.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings bhante,

Perhaps if you read it in the clear light of day when you have woken up, you will see that I merely listed some examples of breaking the precepts of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, and wrong speech.

Indeed, and I have no problem with it. In fact, i find it much preferable to the racial grievance mongering, that I did not find in the Sutta Pitaka. That's why, you will note, I did not speak against it.

It is simply (as I said) "interesting", since on one hand you advance "social justice" issues (in contrast to Dhammic justice issues, or blind justice issues) through your focus on race and race relations (i.e. the Cultural Marxist claptrap that others are somehow accountable for our bad life choices) yet on the other hand, you recognise the Dhamma teachings on morality, whereby we are the heir to our own deeds.

Thus, interesting... since the two models of moral responsibility and accountability appear at odds. One, based on personal agency, is traceable back to the Blessed One's discourses, the other not.

Metta,
Paul.

[mikenz66]

Thanks to the Venerables who have continued here in the face of hostility. I applaud them for speaking out, and, as I said the fact that some here disagree with them doesn't make it wrong for them to speak out and give practical advice:

For some reason I cannot picture in my mind the Buddha counseling a woman being abused by her husband and partner with the advice to be gracious because the abuse is not more severe.

Here's some comments from Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in his collection of talks Dhammic Socialism. Obviously he wasn't afraid to speak out about Thai society...

http://www.bia.or.th/en/index.php/teach ... ebooks/pdf

...

Mike

[Mr Man]

Here is a "Joint Statement of Solidarity with the black communities in the USA and the UK"

As faith leaders and activists from all over the UK, we write in solidarity with the black communities in the USA and the UK.

We have been horrified by the killing of George Floyd in the USA, and the brutality against the black communities there. Whilst these events have taken place thousands of miles away, we cannot ignore them, and must remain vigilant with regards to the situation in the UK.

We believe that voices from the black communities should be at the fore now, but as many of our own communities are comprised of people from different races and ethnicities, we wanted to make a statement of support. We stand alongside the black communities of the UK, of all faiths and none. Whilst Britain is overall a tolerant country, we recognise the history of systemic racism and prejudice many have faced, and reject the pernicious ideology of white supremacy.

As in the USA, COVID-19 has shone a spotlight on longstanding racial inequalities in this country. The report published by Public Health England this week shows that people from black and Asian ethnic groups are up to twice as likely to die from COVID-19 than those from white British backgrounds. This is deeply troubling, and there is concern that the crisis will have further disproportionate impacts on the BAME community in other ways.

We stand shoulder to shoulder with the black population of the UK, and the USA, in affirming that Black Lives Matter. Support for social change from different faith communities has been a source of strength in the past. The civil rights movement in the USA in the 1960s was backed by many faith communities. Rev Martin Luther King was president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and received support from different Churches. Furthermore, one of King’s most vociferous allies was Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, who famously said after marching with him at Selma in 1965: “I felt my legs were praying.”

As well as expressing solidarity with the black population of the UK and USA, we recommit to standing up to racism and prejudice within our own communities, and wider British society.

Signed by:

Maurice Ostro OBE, Chair, Faiths United
Ajahn Amaro, Abbot, Amaravati Buddhist Monastery
Qari Asim, Chair, Mosques & Imams National Advisory Board
Nemu Chandaria OBE, President, ONEJain
Zaki Cooper, Trustee, Council of Christians and Jews
Malcolm Deboo, President, Zoroastrian Trust Funds of Europe
Mustafa Field OBE, Director, Faiths Forum for London
Rajnish Kashyap, General Secretary, Hindu Council UK
Farhad Mawani, Ismailli Community
Rev Dr Heather Morris, Methodist Church in Ireland
Rev Canon Lusa Nsenga-Ngoy, Leicester Cathedral
Bhaven Pathak, Director, Yog Foundation
Jeevun Rohilla, Faiths United Youth Network
Krish Raval OBE, Director, Faith in Leadership
Syra Sanghera, Co-Chair, Faiths United Youth Network
Venerable Bogoda Seelawimala, Head of the London Buddhist Vihara
Mandip Singh, Director, Gurdwara Aid
Daniel Singleton, National Executive Director, Faith Action
Iain Stewart, Executive Director, Edinburgh Inter-Faith Association
Shahien Taj OBE, Executive Director, Henna Foundation
Dr Mark Owen, Director, Centre of Religion, Reconciliation and Peace, University of Winchester
Padideh Sabeti, Director, Office of Public Affairs of the UK Bahá’í Community

http://faithsforum.com/joint-statement- ... june-2020/

[Chanh Dao]

Do not harbour hatred for someone to the extent you can see or acknowledge no good of them. This would apply for example to genuine white supremacists, genuine black supremacists, or anyone with Trump Derangement Syndrome like CNN, MSNBC, activist monks etc. Do not be fake news.
...
Do not be the monk in the video.
...
Do not be like Chanh Dao in this discussion topic.

CNN or Fox News, which do you think is more deranged? Did you check which broadcast the most fake news?
What did the monk in the video do to strike his mother or father? Why are you making ad hominem attacks on Chanh Dao? Of all people, the Site Admin should be avoiding such comments.

So you are giving your own view in preference to Suttas, Commentaries, or your teachers. Who is your teacher? Do you have anyone who you regard as your teacher?

Wow~ cool water with sugar.

Someone isn't neglecting there due diligence.

[Dhamma Chameleon]

Thanks to the Venerables who have continued here in the face of hostility. I applaud them for speaking out, and, as I said the fact that some here disagree with them doesn't make it wrong for them to speak out and give practical advice:

For some reason I cannot picture in my mind the Buddha counseling a woman being abused by her husband and partner with the advice to be gracious because the abuse is not more severe.

Here's some comments from Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in his collection of talks Dhammic Socialism. Obviously he wasn't afraid to speak out about Thai society...

http://www.bia.or.th/en/index.php/teach ... ebooks/pdf

I agree.

Thank you for these references.

Like with so many old scriptures, different suttas seem to recommend different viewpoints or courses of action in similar situations. To me the dhamma is rarely absolute, with one correct answer, but about finding the wisest response to any given situation.

[Chanh Dao]

I am very thankful for everyone participating and it's an opportunity to value community as all the individuals involved here.

I for one had no idea about the political leanings of the admin of the server, nor was I aware of the approach to interacting with Monastics whose views the admin doesn't agree with.

It is eye opening and I for one have to applaud the Admin of the server for being so open about these views.

It really is transparent.


Secondly of course want to reiterate my stance that the role of a monastic within community is to represent the values of Compassion, kindness, consideration, generosity, wholesomeness, forgiveness, and yes engaged work for social justice within society.

All the while keeping in mind the principles of non-self, impermanent, and dissatisfaction.


We should always be willing to take on that stance and perspective of non-self and from that position the compassionate expression of wisdom will naturally flow forth.

In this sense I am thankful for the Admin of the server for being a mirror of my own mind and practice and I am thankful for this opportunity to reflect on how I will go forward in this path keeping in mind I may run into individuals in power with this kind of approach.


In terms of the news. I think it's blatantly clear that we should be able to let go of our attachments and ideas about broad vague subjects and instead if we are really interested in something.we should bring up individual cases and discuss them openly.

For example this or that segment on this or that network. Discussions from that place of directness.


Also we should be very mindful of the state of our human minds here in this very moment.

We should not take suttas as a way to superimpose wisdom into our lives rather suttas are meant as an impetus for wisdom to arrise.

Suttas themselves are not wisdom. They are simply a transmission of wisdom.

Whether or not someone receives it is not a matter of memorization or collecting ideas to add onto ourselves.

In fact whether or not one recieves it is not even in the mentioning of it or pointing to it.

It is the moment to moment cessation of suffering in one's life.

Embracing the ideals of the Buddha directly.

Moment to moment letting go of all *you think* *you know*

Are you willing to let go of your Subjective feelings?

The relative and the absolute. Holding both in balance we walk forward in recognition of the 4 noble truths along the 8 fold path.

May all who read this be well and may they let go of notions of discrimination and disrespect.

Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings bhante,

I am very thankful for everyone participating and it's an opportunity to value community as all the individuals involved here.

Well said. I concur.

I for one had no idea about the political leanings of the admin of the server,

Yes, they are cascaded from and derived from the teachings in the Sutta Pitaka. Any resemblance to secular political positions is purely coincidental.

nor was I aware of the approach to interacting with Monastics whose views the admin doesn't agree with.

It is as per the Terms of Service...

At Dhamma Wheel, we respect your intellectual and spiritual autonomy. As such, the staff here will not enforce reverence to anyone or anything, nor censor speech gratuitously. In keeping with this respect for your autonomy, we expect you to be personally responsible for your own emotions and responses. If there are forum members you do not wish to engage with, please apply restraint and/or register them in the system as foes - do not publicly complain about them.

Speech and actions are moderated strictly and impartially according to the standards defined in the Terms of Service - not to the standard of Sutta, Vinaya, personal preference, nor any other code and/or standard of conduct.

It is eye opening and I for one have to applaud the Admin of the server for being so open about these views.

It really is transparent.

All views are welcome here, so long as it is remembered that..

Dhamma Wheel is an environment for the discussion of Theravada Buddhism.

I actually cannot think of another forum, other than DWE (in recent times) where that is true. Thus, I can understand it may be unexpected. The moderators we select for this forum are especially chosen because they demonstrate no inclination to control or censor what others say or think. In other words, they respect the intellectual and spiritual autonomy of all members, and simply curate a space for discussion. It appears to me that true tolerance looks very different than what self-proclaimed advocates of "tolerance" often put forward (i.e. totalitarianism)

Secondly of course want to reiterate my stance that the role of a monastic within community is to represent the values of Compassion, kindness, consideration, generosity, wholesomeness, forgiveness, and yes engaged work for social justice within society.

Thank you for sharing your perspective, but again, you will not find "social justice" (read: Cultural Marxism) in the Tipitaka. Thus, whatever monastic path you speak of is alien to the Buddha.

All the while keeping in mind the principles of non-self, impermanent, and dissatisfaction.

Indeed. Transcendence of identity is good. See my signature for Buddhist quotes that align with that Dhammic truth.

We should always be willing to take on that stance and perspective of non-self and from that position the compassionate expression of wisdom will naturally flow forth.

Nicely said.

In this sense I am thankful for the Admin of the server for being a mirror of my own mind and practice and I am thankful for this opportunity to reflect on how I will go forward in this path keeping in mind I may run into individuals in power with this kind of approach.

In the context of this forum, I am the administrator in terms of having accountability for the Terms of Service and their execution.

In the context of this discussion, I am merely a participant, like you and others.

InIn terms of the news. I think it's blatantly clear that we should be able to let go of our attachments and ideas about broad vague subjects and instead if we are really interested in something.we should bring up individual cases and discuss them openly. For example this or that segment on this or that network. Discussions from that place of directness.

This is good advice. However, if such discussions are not directly related to Theravada Buddhism, they would be better had at Dharma Wheel Engaged. That forum has been set up specifically for those who want to apply their understanding of the Dhamma to social, worldly and environmental issues, beyond the scope of what the historical Buddha taught.

Thank you for your input.

Metta,
Paul.

[DooDoot]

Thank you for these references.

When Buddhadasa speaks about Buddha-Dhamma, many ignore or even revile him. But when he erred in attempting to adhammically connect Buddhism with Western "socialism", he gets praised by the same who revile his explanations of Buddha-Dhamma. Its is arguable the realities Buddhadasa was referring to from "Buddhism tradition" are examples of Buddhist generosity rather than Western & Judaic socialism. Generosity is a voluntary virtue of renunciation where as socialism appears to have a sense of unearned or non-karmmic entitlement. Socialists steal, chop off heads, establish gulags, etc.

[Dhamma Chameleon]

When Buddhadasa speaks about Dhamma, many ignore or even revile him. But when he erred in attempting to adhammically connect Buddhism with Western "socialism", he gets praised by the same who revile his explanations of Dhamma. Its appears the realities Buddhadasa was referring to from historical Buddhism are examples of Buddhist generosity rather than Western & Judaic socialism.

I read those excerpts as another way to look at social service rather than in support of the political organisation system called socialism.

Buddhadasa was my first real teacher (posthumously), without Suan Mokkh I would not be where I am today. I am immensely grateful to him and his teachings.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Chanh Dao,

One more thing, spoken strictly for the purposes of mutual understanding (not because I really want to be discussing such things at this Theravada site)...

...engaged work for social justice within society....

Often people talk past one another in discussion, so there is something I would like to clarify here.

"Social" and "justice" are two nice words, aren't they?

When you put them together, though, you are actually talking about a certain radical, discriminative, left-wing way of looking at a situation. Social justice drags in various intellectual frameworks, founded in Critical Race Theory and Cultural Marxism.

The "left-wing" does not have a monopoly over justice or compassion however. Justice essentially means fair, just treatment. Those who do not take a left-wing Marxist approach to justice tend to favour an alternative model, simply entitled "justice", or (in order to differentiate it from social justice)... "blind justice".



Do you see how Lady Justice is wearing a blindfold? This blindfold means that she will strive to deliver justice regardless of who you are. Thus, regardless of your race, your gender, your status, and so on. It is not justice because of your race, but justice regardless of your race.

This is why even though radicals like Malcolm X are divided in terms of how they are regarded, Martin Luther King is regarded in virtually unanimously positive terms...



The reason this is held in universally high regard is because it is a universal teaching. It looks past the particular mark and features (nimitta) to see the generality of sentient beings, subject to dukkha.

Similarly, the Buddha's teaching is not rooted in racial grievance mongering - it is universal. As per the sutta I showed earlier...

"Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman.
By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman."

When one puts the Buddha's teachings first, and allows their political views to cascade from there, this universality becomes a key feature. As per my signature quotes...

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

... we should actually be striving to surpass identity views - not make them the foundational centre-piece of our political world-view. When we introduce non-universality (by race, by gender) we regress from the Buddha's teaching to something less wise.

If we apply a "blind justice" lens to the George Floyd situation, then the police officer is charged with murder and manslaughter, and that man will receive a fair trial in a court of law. It makes no difference if the person is male, white, straight, Christian or whatever... because, remember... true justice is blind to such considerations. The court would make its decision, and punishments made, if applicable.

If we apply a "social justice" lens to the George Floyd situation, we have rioting, unrest, looting, destruction, chaos, anarchy, monks estranging themselves from their family members, and all sorts of other horrible socio-economic consequences. It is not a coincidence that the cities that have fallen victim to violence and looting are cities with left-wing mayors, primarily in left-wing states, prone to looking at situations through a leftist lens. (Side note: your hero monk has declared the policeman is guilty of murder... thus he doesn't believe the man deserves to receive a fair trial... Is that "justice"?)

Please tell me. Which is those two sets of outcomes is best? Which outcome is just? Which outcome is better for society?

Anyway... all of this is not to talk about "social justice"... but simply to show you that there are other alternatives to improving society, other than the cause of "social justice" that you have chosen to champion. Personally, I see more destruction, confusion, division and suffering caused by "social justice" than "blind justice". Your mileage may vary... but please know that our end goals may be closer than they seem, even if the methods and frameworks underpinning them are radically different.

I hope this was of some use in understanding why your ideas are met with support only from left-wingers, and how your ideas not only contradict what the majority of Americans believe, but how they have also fallen a long way from the lofty universality of the Buddha. I implore you and other left-wing monastics to consider returning to guidance from the Buddha on such matters, as he is wiser than any other person you may choose to follow. You may receive less cudos, and less opportunities to signal your virtue in front of fellow leftists, but you will actually be following the way of the elders, and that will be for the betterment of the Sangha and all sentient beings.



Metta,
Paul.

[DooDoot]

I read those excerpts as another way to look at social service rather than in support of the political organisation system called socialism.

Buddhadasa wrote those things during the Cold War, where the Thai military govt was aligned with & a puppet of the USA imperialists. Buddhadasa had many Commie followers. In fact, i recall reading after Communism was legalised after the Thammasat University massacre (where i image a few Buddhadasa martyrs perished), many of these followers joined the Commie Party and ended their crypto association with Buddhadasa. Personally, my view is it was not necessary for Buddhadasa to use the word "socialism". This said, it was his business. But when i lived in his monastary, his translator Santikaro personally talking about "Dhamma Socialism" was bizzaro. Most listeners laughed. I was fortunate Buddhadasa rarely spoke of it, in case he brainwashed me like i was brained with his Interfaith stuffs.

Buddhadasa was my first real teacher, without Suan Mokkh I would not be where I am today. I am immensely grateful to him and his teachings.

He was the 1st Buddhist teacher i became attached to & also the 1st teacher i ever heard. I listened to him speak at least 50 times when he was alive. But these days I don't regard him as a "real" teacher (despite the Dhamma I found then often using my own initiative & despite his many most excellent teachings on Dhamma Language, Dependent Origination & Emptiness). For me, in hindsight, he mixed in too much non-Buddhist stuff and neglected to teach essential matters & neglected the real duties of a teacher. Thank god the suttas made everything perfect. Each to his own. Kind regards. Good to talk. I better head out now for some evening solitude.

[Dhamma Chameleon]

Buddhadasa was my first real teacher, without Suan Mokkh I would not be where I am today. I am immensely grateful to him and his teachings.

He was the 1st Buddhist teacher i became attached to & also the 1st teacher i ever heard. I listened to him speak at least 50 times when he was alive. But these days I don't regard him as a "real" teacher (despite the Dhamma I found then often using my own initiative & despite his many most excellent teachings on Dhamma Language, Dependent Origination & Emptiness). For me, in hindsight, he mixed in too much non-Buddhist stuff and neglected to teach essential matters & neglected the real duties of a teacher. Thank god the suttas made everything perfect. Each to his own. Kind regards. Good to talk. I better head out now for some evening solitude.

I wasn't aware of the political context he was speaking in.

As a first teacher he was exactly what I needed, because of the clear explanations, scientific rationalism and non-Buddhist stuff. I've moved on and mainly turn to the suttas now too, but remain grateful.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

It is simply (as I said) "interesting", since on one hand you advance "social justice" issues (in contrast to Dhammic justice issues, or blind justice issues) through your focus on race and race relations (i.e. the Cultural Marxist claptrap that others are somehow accountable for our bad life choices) yet on the other hand, you recognise the Dhamma teachings on morality, whereby we are the heir to our own deeds.

Thus, interesting... since the two models of moral responsibility and accountability appear at odds. One, based on personal agency, is traceable back to the Blessed One's discourses, the other not.

Perhaps you are conflicted about social justice issues and Dhammic justice issues. I am not. If I see black people being murdered by cops on trumped up charges, or elderly, white social justice campaigners being shoved over and left lying in his own blood, I see only injustice and violation of all that is humane and decent. Justice should be blind to skin colour and political bias, but it is not.

When I read about the Buddha physically intervening three times to prevent his own relatives being murdered by King Pasendi's heir, King Viṭaṭūbha, I see a monk resisting injustice rooted in racial prejudice. I don't see him ignoring the problem, thinking: “What is it to me, the Sakyans insulted Prince Viṭaṭūbha, so they must get what they deserve.” Only after three attempts, did he stand back and let kamma take its inevitable course.

When I read about the Buddha comparing the behaviour of brahmins, and showing it to be worse than dogs, I see a monk unafraid to blame hypocrites who claim superiority over other castes, which they treat as defiled and inferior, just as the Sakyans mistreated the son of a slave-woman.

It sure beats me that Mahānāma the Sakyan was only to happy to have sex with Viṭatūbha's mother, but unwilling to eat together with his own son.

The Buddha allowed monks not to visit families that fail to show due respect. This was a rebuke to King Pasenadi for his negligence in not serving the monks that he had invited for alms.