Monastics protesting social injustice

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man
No you are not arguing that all tax is theft.
I'm glad that is now clear.
You are arguing that Ven Sujato advocates theft and breaking the 2nd precept
That is what it sounded like, yes.

and that a "wealth tax" can be considered theft according to the Theravada.
Yes, as well as state appropriation of property.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

zerotime

in that case the richest man was the King, and he agreed to be free of his own wealth accumulation to preserve the social order. He seemed to be not only the political ruler but also the lawyer, the banker to give credits. and etc.. With all the power concentrated in himself.
It says not to levy a fresh tax but funds should be covered by the state. Today this would translate as government spending from any surplus it has accrued, or through borrowing.
Anyway, from that episode one can infer in modern times there is an immoral situation when persons with an excessive wealth denies to share it so their own societies can live in a better way. A different discussion would be to know if the solution could be a modern tax for that specific people. Maybe it is not effective or there is another way. No idea.
It can be argued that they are not keeping their sila, yes. That, however, is down to them. We cannot force them to do good and indeed in doing so we would not be keeping our sila. Of course, in this situation the best thing the very rich person could do would be to give more of his wealth to the sangha.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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mikenz66
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:38 pm Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:31 pm Actually, you have talked about conformity with your interpretation of the Dhamma, just like everyone else.
Actually, bhikkhus advocating Cultural Marxist principles have provided zero substantiation from the Tipitaka that the Buddha's Dhamma supports their Cultural Marxist ideals, despite repeatedly being asked to do so. Many examples of Cultural Marxism being directly opposed by the Suttas have been provided by myself and others.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary, it would appear you are once more in error. Please share a link.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
There have been plenty of suttas quoted about the Buddha and other monastics advising lay people, and the Buddha commenting on the sharing of wealth, kindness, and compassion for others. I'm sure you've read all of those arguments, before, just as I've read your opinion about Cultural Marxists and how they are ruining society many times

You seem extremely sure of your personal interpretation of the Dhamma. Since noone here is likely to be free of greed, aversion, or delusion, your confidence may be misplaced.

I come here to learn about Dhamma, and the variety of interpretations that people bring to it. So I'm pleased that we have monastics and others bringing their own experience and opinions here.

:heart:
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:38 pm Actually, bhikkhus advocating Cultural Marxist principles have provided zero substantiation from the Tipitaka that the Buddha's Dhamma supports their Cultural Marxist ideals, despite repeatedly being asked to do so. Many examples of Cultural Marxism being directly opposed by the Suttas have been provided by myself and others.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary, it would appear you are once more in error. Please share a link.
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:48 pm There have been plenty of suttas quoted about the Buddha and other monastics advising lay people, and the Buddha commenting on the sharing of wealth, kindness, and compassion for others. I'm sure you've read all of those arguments, before, just as I've read your opinion about Cultural Marxists and how they are ruining society many times

...

I come here to learn about Dhamma, and the variety of interpretations that people bring to it. So I'm pleased that we have monastics and others bringing their own experience and opinions here.
Ok, so still no link, and still no substantiation after 23 pages of discussion.

In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a left-wing bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that left-wing bhikkhu — or by that left-wing community, or by those left-wing elders, or by that left-wing elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it.

:buddha1:

When questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for their statements, they would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would undergo vexation.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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retrofuturist
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
You seem extremely sure of your personal interpretation of the Dhamma. Since noone here is likely to be free of greed, aversion, or delusion, your confidence may be misplaced.
This notion of it being about retrofuturist, confidence or personal interpretation has been repeatedly refuted.

One more time, since you were clearly not paying attention...

Do the Four Great References make reference to retrofuturist? No. They make reference to the Blessed One's Sutta and Vinaya.

Are the Cultural Marxist statements of the modern, heterodox, left-wing Buddhist monks traceable back to the Buddha's discourses? No, they are not. However the left-wing bhikkhus are welcome to fulfil their Buddha-given duty to trace their own words back to those of the Blessed One to explain how their heterodox Cultural Marxist accretions are justified in this Dhamma and Discipline. Their ongoing failure to do so speaks volumes.

Thus, it would appear that your feelings on the matter are empty, void, and without substance.
SN 22.95 wrote:"Now suppose that in the autumn — when it's raining in fat, heavy drops — a water bubble were to appear & disappear on the water, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a water bubble? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any feeling that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in feeling?
:buddha1:

Please be reminded that this is a Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of Theravāda Buddhism, not a Puggalavada (path of persons) forum. As such, please ensure comments are about the Dhamma, not off-topic papanca about Persons.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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zerotime
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by zerotime »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:27 pm it says not to levy a fresh tax but funds should be covered by the state. Today this would translate as government spending from any surplus it has accrued, or through borrowing.
well but the State as we know this it was a later conception. It can be difficult doing an extrapolation because today there is the financial world, and the nature of money and the related power has changed. I wonder if today the sense could be more addressed to those financial engineerings, markets, transnationals, debt mechanics... instead to specific individuals. I don't know really. Probably somebody with knowledge on economics can know this.
It can be argued that they are not keeping their sila, yes. That, however, is down to them. We cannot force them to do good and indeed in doing so we would not be keeping our sila. Of course, in this situation the best thing the very rich person could do would be to give more of his wealth to the sangha.
at least I understand the history points to an specific situation of excessive accumulation, when the king says:

"I have in abundance all the good things a mortal can enjoy. the whole wide circle of the earth is mine by conquest to possess."

the wished image is quite evident. He had an excessive wealth accumulated and paralyzed. Although able to solve the problems of his society.

I don't know if today there is some State with a comparative situation, with a wealth accumulated and paralyzed. In the news we only hear how all states are in a dangerous debt situation. So maybe in our present days it could have more relation with these debt mechanisms or another things from that complex financial world. I don't have enough knowledge of that world to know what it could fit better.

Anyway, I agree the history cannot be a justification for a communist approach. I mean to extract the wealth of any rich person by the
force, specially if that wealth was produced in a right way. Differences in individual interests and efforts also cause some people can enjoy
of more wealth than others. That's logical.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by sunnat »

May all right-wingers be happy too
may all who judge let go
may every self cherisher happy be

Watching the eternal change, changing, changing, turning...

May all who are tight inside let go
Be happy, peaceful, liberated
Watch anicca see the unbound beyond
Letting go of dogma, false refuge, find refuge in the Blessed One instead
May all right wingers be happy too
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
sunnat wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:26 pm Letting go of dogma, false refuge, find refuge in the Blessed One instead
:bow:

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re:

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

As per sunnat's suggestion, and returning to the teachings of The Teacher in this dispensation, his discourses clearly show how the false Dhamma of racial grievance mongering, "social justice" etc. causes its adherents to be "blind", when assessed against the criteria of the Dhamma.

Let us rejoice in the Blessed One's words...

:buddha1:
AN 3.29 wrote:“These three kinds of people are found in the world. What three? The blind, the one-eyed, and the two-eyed.

Who is the blind person? It’s someone who doesn’t have the kind of vision that’s needed to acquire more wealth or to increase the wealth they’ve already acquired. Nor do they have the kind of vision that’s needed to know the difference between qualities that are skillful and unskillful, blameworthy and blameless, inferior and superior, and those on the side of dark and bright. This is called a blind person.

Who is the person with one eye? It’s someone who has the kind of vision that’s needed to acquire more wealth and to increase the wealth they’ve already acquired. But they don’t have the kind of vision that’s needed to know the difference between qualities that are skillful and unskillful, blameworthy and blameless, inferior and superior, and those on the side of dark and bright. This is called a one-eyed person.

Who is the person with two eyes? It’s someone who has the kind of vision that’s needed to acquire more wealth and to increase the wealth they’ve already acquired. And they have the kind of vision that’s needed to know the difference between skillful and unskillful, blameworthy and blameless, inferior and superior, or qualities on the side of dark and bright. This is called a two-eyed person.

These are the three people found in the world.

Neither suitable wealth,
nor merit do they make.
They lose on both counts,
those who are blind, with ruined eyes.


And now the one-eyed
person is explained.
By methods good and bad,
that devious person seeks wealth.

Both by fraudulent, thieving deeds,
and also by lies,
the young man’s skilled at piling up money,
and enjoying sensual pleasures.
From here they go to hell—
the one-eyed person is ruined.

And now the two-eyed is explained,
the best individual.
Their wealth is earned legitimately,
money acquired by their own hard work.

They give with best of intentions,
that peaceful-hearted person.
They go to a good place,
where there is no sorrow.

The blind and the one-eyed,
you should avoid from afar.

But you should keep the two-eyed close,
the best individual.”
Thus, adhammic left-wing Buddhism pushed by "monastics protesting social injustice" which leads only to destruction and poverty, and demonstrable confusion about what is wholesome and unwholesome, blameworthy and blameless etc. should be avoided from afar.

:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
krish5
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by krish5 »

I am pretty new to this forum, having been reading some of it here and there and stumbled upon this thread. It is very interesting, the differing opinions. Can someone help me understand the participants here, it seems there are several monks on this thread? They are monastics who have left the world behind and are monks full time, is that so? Which ones are they and where do they live, in the USA or other countries? If they are monks, wouldnt they be more experts or have more expertise than the rest of us?

Retro, you seem to really like Donald Trump. I am curious, do you live in the USA? If not, why do you respect and talk about him so much, am curious?
I know politics is a hotly debatable subject and i understand both sides, am able to see from different perspectives. It would be interesting to keep following this thread and others, especially where Monks are participating. I respect them greatly and want to learn more. I hope they keep sharing on here.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings krish5,

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

:buddha1:
krish5 wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:23 am I am pretty new to this forum, having been reading some of it here and there and stumbled upon this thread. It is very interesting, the differing opinions. Can someone help me understand the participants here, it seems there are several monks on this thread? They are monastics who have left the world behind and are monks full time, is that so? Which ones are they and where do they live, in the USA or other countries? If they are monks, wouldnt they be more experts or have more expertise than the rest of us?
I recall contributions within this topic from Bhikkhu Pesala, and Chanh Dao... both monastics. The views of other monastics have been discussed in this topic, but they have not been active participants in this conversation, and most likely aren't even registered at this forum. There are other monastics at Dhamma Wheel, but I do not recall their participation in this particular topic... however it is a long topic now, so if you are in doubt, feel free to ask.
krish5 wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:23 am Retro, you seem to really like Donald Trump. I am curious, do you live in the USA? If not, why do you respect and talk about him so much, am curious?
I know politics is a hotly debatable subject and i understand both sides, am able to see from different perspectives.
What retrofuturist believes is not on-topic other than as I have said repeatedly... I believe one's political views should cascade down from one's understanding of the Dhamma. It should not be the other way around, where the Dhamma (and Vinaya in the case of monks) is twisted to match a secular political view. Others disagree, even though we read in the Vinaya that...
Should any bhikkhu, without taking leave of an available bhikkhu, enter a village at the wrong time—unless there is a suitable emergency—it is to be confessed.
The backstory to this requirement indicates that "the purpose of this rule is to prevent bhikkhus from passing their time among householders engaged in animal talk".

:pig:

If you wish to speak more broadly of politics, independently of the specific topic of "Monastics protesting social injustice", then our sister forum Dharma Wheel Engaged (Engaged Buddhism forum, a nonsectarian community discussing the application of the Dharma to social and environmental issues) would be a more suitable place to conduct such conversation.
krish5 wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:23 am It would be interesting to keep following this thread and others, especially where Monks are participating. I respect them greatly and want to learn more. I hope they keep sharing on here.
Indeed, it is a blessing when monastics teach Dhamma. On that matter I believe there is no dispute.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by krish5 »

Retro, i wanted to PM you and ask a few questions that i didnt want to ask publically, is there a way to PM you on here?
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings krish5,
krish5 wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:35 am Retro, i wanted to PM you and ask a few questions that i didnt want to ask publically, is there a way to PM you on here?
There is a private message function, yes.

Although there is a certain number of posts you will need to make before that functionality becomes available... I cannot recall off the top of my head what that number is.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

I don't normally visit this forum these days but I've been intrigued by this thread. My personal understanding is that monks can advise individuals and groups of people with reference to the Buddha's Dhamma but step outside their Vinaya remit if they inveigle themselves into politics without using the Buddha's teachings as a basis for their views; indeed, a monks involvement in politics at all seems a distraction to their stated aims (liberation from worldly affairs).
I do follow a monk and have faith; but if he were to start making statements in support of questionable organisations in the world of politics I think my faith would take a hit.
Fortunately he does not engage in such pandering to new wave social justice nonsense nor comment on the groups opposing them. He teaches individual morality and the Buddha's Dhamma... quite a novel idea it seems.

Metta
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:37 pm One more time, since you were clearly not paying attention...
Sorry, evidently I don't have the necessary paramis to understand your expositions.

:heart:
Mike
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