Vimutti and nibbāna

[simsapa]

What is the difference?

[DooDoot]

Vimutti = state of mind

Nibbana = non-mental phenomena experienced by the mind

[sentinel]

Vimutti = state of mind

Nibbana = non-mental phenomena experienced by the mind

Probably you could provide sutta reference ? Although dont think the bolded could be found in the suttas .

[SteRo]

vimutti: 'deliverance', is of 2 kinds: deliverance of mind (ceto-vimutti, q.v.) and deliverance through wisdom (paññā-vimutti, q.v.).

'Deliverance of mind', in the highest sense, is that kind of concentration (samādhi) which is bound up with the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga); 'deliverance through wisdom' is the knowledge (ñāna) bound up with the fruition of Arahatship (arahatta-phala). Cf. A. V, 142.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Buddhist.Di ... dic3_v.htm

Nibbāna, (Sanskrit nirvāna): lit. 'extinction' (nir + Ö va, to cease blowing, to become extinguished); according to the commentaries, 'freedom from desire' (nir+ vana). Nibbāna constitutes the highest and ultimate goal of all Buddhist aspirations, i.e. absolute extinction of that life-affirming will manifested as greed, hate and delusion, and convulsively clinging to existence; and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery. Cf. Parinibbāna.

"Extinction of greed, extinction of hate, extinction of delusion: this is called Nibbāna" (S. XXXVIII. 1).

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Buddhist.Di ... dic3_n.htm

[DooDoot]

Although dont think the bolded could be found in the suttas .

Nibbana is not a mental phenomena. It is asankhata dhatu (MN 115), per the suttas. It is a mind object (ayatana; Ud 8.1), per the suttas. Or per suttas DN 33 & Iti 51, there are three elements: form, formless and cessation (rūpadhātu, arūpadhātu, nirodhadhātu). Thus Nibbana is an object of mental experience but Nibbana is not a mental phenomena. Vimutti appears to be a mental phenomena, per many suttas (MN 10 - vimuttaṃ cittam; MN 29, MN 30 & MN 43 - cetovimutti; MN 118 - vimocayaṃ
cittaṃ, etc). It seems what you dont think is wrong.

[SarathW]

Vimutti = state of mind

Nibbana = non-mental phenomena experienced by the mind

How does the mind experience, non-mental things?

[DooDoot]

How does the mind experience, non-mental things?

Sounds like Mahayana Yogacara. Nibbana is non-mental, per the suttas. Obviously, the mind can experience non-mental Nibbana. The question of "how" appears non-sequitur. Mind is sankhata dhatu. Nibbana is asankhata dhatu - MN 115.

vimutti: 'deliverance', is of 2 kinds: deliverance of mind (ceto-vimutti, q.v.) and deliverance through wisdom (paññā-vimutti, q.v.).

'Deliverance of mind', in the highest sense, is that kind of concentration (samādhi) which is bound up with the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga); 'deliverance through wisdom' is the knowledge (ñāna) bound up with the fruition of Arahatship (arahatta-phala). Cf. A. V, 142.

Thus vimutti appears "conditioned"; conditioned upon wisdom. But Nibbana appears "unconditioned". The element (MN 115) of Nibbana exists (Ud 8.1), regardless of if there are only puthujjana in the world. Therefore, it appears Nagarjuna was wrong.

[sentinel]

Nibbana is not a mental phenomena.
It seems what you dont think is wrong.

Well , the elimination of attachment hate & delusion is nibbana ie equivalent to an mental experience !

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland

It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

[cappuccino]

Nirvana is a Dimension…


“There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this, is the end of dukkha.”
~ Ud 8.1

[simsapa]

[ceto-vimutti] is that kind of concentration (samādhi) which is bound up with the path of Arahatship

So what kind of concentration is that? Is it one of the jhanas?

[simsapa]

It is a mind object (ayatana; Ud 8.1), per the suttas.

I'm not seeing how Ud 8.1 supports this at all. Where is nibbana as an "ayatana" mentioned?

There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this, is the end of dukkha.

[cappuccino]

Where is nibbana as an "ayatana" mentioned?

Dimension

[DooDoot]

Well , the elimination of attachment hate & delusion is nibbana ie equivalent to an mental experience !

The above appears a practical way of referring to Nibbbana, but, ultimately, Nibbana is the unconditioned therefore is independent of mind. The sutta say Nibbana is UNSANKHATA DHATU - therefore it is not a mental phenomena.

Iti 44 says: "ayaṃ vuccati" - "is called". Iti 44 does not say: "is".

I'm not seeing how Ud 8.1 supports this at all. Where is nibbana as an "ayatana" mentioned?

Translated as "sphere". But "ayatana" more fundamentally means "sense sphere" or "sense object" (refer to MN 148).

Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ, na viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ, na ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ, na nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ, nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko, na ubho candimasūriyā. Tatrāpāhaṃ, bhikkhave, neva āgatiṃ vadāmi, na gatiṃ, na ṭhitiṃ, na cutiṃ, na upapattiṃ; appatiṭṭhaṃ, appavattaṃ, anārammaṇamevetaṃ. Esevanto dukkhassā”ti

https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/pli/ms

[ceto-vimutti] is that kind of concentration (samādhi) which is bound up with the path of Arahatship

So what kind of concentration is that? Is it one of the jhanas?

The quote appears merely an interpretation. In my personal interpretation, 'paññāvimutti' sounds like a 'means/method' and 'cetovimuttiṃ' sounds like a 'goal/end'. In other words, the meditator uses 'paññāvimutti' to achieve 'cetovimuttiṃ'.

Many suttas contain the words "cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimutti" together, particularly in the following phrase:

āsavānaṃ khayā anāsavaṃ cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā

realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life

https://suttacentral.net/sn51.7/en/sujato

he enters and dwells in that liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom

https://suttacentral.net/an3.33/en/bodhi

About 'paññāvimutti', SN 22.58 says:

A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion [towards the five agggregates]... through... fading away and cessation, is called one liberated by wisdom.

About 'cetovimuttiṃ', MN 29 says:

Yā ca kho ayaṃ, bhikkhave, akuppā cetovimutti — etadatthamidaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmacariyaṃ, etaṃ sāraṃ etaṃ pariyosānan

the goal, heartwood and final end of the spiritual life is the unshakable freedom of heart.

'paññāvimutti' = 'means/method/cause'
'cetovimuttiṃ' = 'goal/end/effect'

vimutti: 'deliverance', is of 2 kinds:

The above looks & sounds wrong to me. I have never read a sutta that refers to cetovimutti has a form of samadhi. You need to provide evidence to support your quote by a scholar. Thanks

When right view is supported by how many factors does it have freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom as its fruit and benefit?

Katihi panāvuso, aṅgehi anuggahitā sammādiṭṭhi cetovimuttiphalā ca hoti cetovimuttiphalānisaṃsā ca, paññāvimuttiphalā ca hoti paññāvimuttiphalānisaṃsā cā”ti?

When right view is supported by five factors it has freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom as its fruit and benefit.

“Pañcahi kho, āvuso, aṅgehi anuggahitā sammādiṭṭhi cetovimuttiphalā ca hoti cetovimuttiphalānisaṃsā ca, paññāvimuttiphalā ca hoti paññāvimuttiphalānisaṃsā ca.

It’s when right view is supported by ethics, learning, discussion, serenity, and discernment.

Idhāvuso, sammādiṭṭhi sīlānuggahitā ca hoti, sutānuggahitā ca hoti, sākacchānuggahitā ca hoti, samathānuggahitā ca hoti, vipassanānuggahitā ca hoti.

When right view is supported by these five factors it has freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom as its fruit and benefit.

Imehi kho, āvuso, pañcahaṅgehi anuggahitā sammādiṭṭhi cetovimuttiphalā ca hoti cetovimuttiphalānisaṃsā ca, paññāvimuttiphalā ca hoti paññāvimuttiphalānisaṃsā cā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato#14.1

No "samadhi" mentioned above.

[confusedlayman]

Vimutti = state of mind

Nibbana = non-mental phenomena experienced by the mind

Nibbana = non-mental phenomena experienced by the mind

can u pls explain how non mental phenomena can be experienced by mental phenomena itself (mind) ?

[DooDoot]

can u pls explain how non mental phenomena can be experienced by mental phenomena itself (mind) ?

must i explain how the mind can experience a physical object? it seems too many intellectual ideas based on Brahminism, Yogacara, Solipsism, etc,

the Dhamma says repeatedly there is one Unsankhata Dhatu (Unconditioned Element) that is not a physical or mental element. why does accepting this teaching appear so difficult?