Coronavirus (Wellness, Diet & Fitness)

Some topics tend to get heated and go off track in unwholesome ways quite quickly. The "hot topics" sub-forum is a place where such topics may be moved so that each post must be manually approved by moderator before it will become visible to members.
Caodemarte
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Coronavirus

Post by Caodemarte »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:36 am
Caodemarte wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:14 am Sweden tried a non-lockdown policy (with the exception of nursing homes). As predicted, Sweden suffered and suffers a significantly higher death rate than neighboring Norway.
False comparison. Sweden 87% of deaths over 75yo; mostly in nursing homes; where 20% of admissions pass-away within one month, regardless. Sweden best compared with UK, Germany, etc, rather than Norway. Sweden, not even 6,000 deaths. Cannot be regarded as a pandemic or epidemic.
No, the standard comparison country for pubic health measures in Sweden is Norway for obvious reasons (similar populations, cultures, diet, etc.) We can see what happens when you change one main variable. If you compare Sweden with Germany, allowing for population differences, Swedish policy comes off even worse. The UK cannot really be compared as it did not take any serious measures until late in the game. The UK is a textbook example of what happens.
Last edited by Caodemarte on Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Caodemarte
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Coronavirus

Post by Caodemarte »

[q][/b]uote=DooDoot post_id=572277 time=1595380773 user_id=14001]
....We know the USA has false attributed many deaths to Covid. It was the official policy.
At a briefing on Tuesday, Dr. Deborah Birx, the coordinator of the White House coronavirus task force, said that the federal government will count the deaths of people who died with coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, despite other countries not doing the same.

"There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem — some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death," Dr. Birx said during the briefing. "The intent is...if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death."

https://live.healthday.com/coronavirus- ... 72483.html
Coronavirus: Japan's mysteriously low virus death rate

At the height of the outbreak in Wuhan in February, when the city's hospitals were overwhelmed and the world put up walls to Chinese travellers, Japan kept borders open....


US policy is not to falsely inflate the death count. The correction came because the more correct and well known way to count contagious disease victims deaths is to count deaths by related causes which are made possible or fatal by the contagious disease. Most deadly diseases kill by over stressing the immune system to the point that other opportunistic killers can move in. Pneumonia will kill you more rapidly than corona, for example, but it is the corona virus that made the infection possible and fatal. If you want to understand the fatality rate of a contagious disease you should ascribe the death to corona virus and opportunistic pneumonia. Otherwise it is like the old coroner’s joke that if you find a bullet in a corpse’s chest, you won’t go wrong in ascribing the death to heart failure and any unexplained death can be ascribed to heart failure, brain failure, and shortage of breath. In any case, it is a near certainty that the death rate of any contagious will be underestimate will be undercounted. It is very unlikely that any health system will be able to find and identify the underlying cause in every case, especially in a time of strained resources, so only the most obvious and easily discovered cases can be counted. Current estimates by experts are that the number corona virus death should be multiplied by a number from 2 to 10 on average. 4 to 10 is the most common range for the US.

Japan did expel foreigners after they were forced to “postpone” the Olympics and has effectively closed its borders. Even Japanese citizens have difficulty returning and must go into quarantine on arrival. It has not taken serious health measures, but has a low rate because they do not test on a sufficient scale and do not report. This is similar to its cancer rate. By not reporting cancer (and often not informing the patient) Japan has a incredibly low cancer rate. This is where cause of death as heart failure, failure to breathe, etc. comes in handy.

As a former worker in public health with a lifelong interest in international public health policy, this has been interesting, but everything I can contribute is basic textbook information. I would encourage all to consult them.
Last edited by Caodemarte on Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
chownah
Posts: 8962
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Coronavirus

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:19 am
santa100 wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:53 pm You're missing the point....
Suddenly everyone is an expert. We know the USA has false attributed many deaths to Covid. It was the official policy.
At a briefing on Tuesday, Dr. Deborah Birx, the coordinator of the White House coronavirus task force, said that the federal government will count the deaths of people who died with coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, despite other countries not doing the same.

"There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem — some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death," Dr. Birx said during the briefing. "The intent is...if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death."

https://live.healthday.com/coronavirus- ... 72483.html
I read the entire part of the whole transcript which deals with this issue and it seems that birx is just stating what already seems to be the way that covid-19 deaths are reported usually.....that being that the person making the cause of death determination or comments considers whether the person would have died at the time of death if they had not contracted the virus. There are huge numbers of people with diabetes or heart disease or lung disease who are not expected to die within a year or even longer. If one of those people contracts covid-19 and dies the it is expected that they died from the virus. There is smaller number of people who have diabetes or heart disease or lung disease who are likely to die at any time and are not likely to live for long. The expectation is that those people would be assigned their disease as the cause of death with the virus as an associated factor....they would not be counted as a virus death.

This is what I remember about an article I read not long ago concerning how cause of death is determined. If anyone thinks I am wrong then please find and bring something to substantiate my wrongness....I would appreciate it.
chownah
chownah
Posts: 8962
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Coronavirus (Wellness, Diet & Fitness)

Post by chownah »

I accidently put this in the equanimity for non mask wearers topic so moderator please delete it from there....sorry for the mistake:

Anyway:
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
More information about unusual problems which are part of covid-19:
As post-COVID heart and brain problems linger, some coronavirus survivors find it's a long haul to recovery
https://news.yahoo.com/as-post-covid-he ... 34453.html
chownah
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8799
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Coronavirus

Post by DooDoot »

Caodemarte wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:47 pm No, the standard comparison country for pubic health measures in Sweden is Norway for obvious reasons (similar populations, cultures, diet, etc.)
No. The following video, which i think EVERYONE should listen to, refutes the above:

Jul 23, 2020 - Swedish Covid-19 chief Anders Tegnell: judge me in a year

https://youtu.be/xh9wso6bEAc
Summary:

In just a few short months Anders Tegnell, architect of Sweden’s unique response to the Covid-19 pandemic, has gone from unknown physician and technocrat to a household celebrity in Sweden and in countries around the world. He is beloved by some (people have even had tattoos made with his face) and intensely disliked by others. Today he is suntanned and relaxed, having just returned from his summer holiday, and wearing an open-necked polo shirt. Here is a summary of what he said:

- In terms of migrants, travel and urban areas Sweden is more similar to the Netherlands and the UK than Norway or Finland

- Lockdown may have made a difference, but closing schools and people being out of work is also bad for public health

- Numbers of new infections arriving at the same time seems to make a big difference, so Stockholm half-term travellers to the Alps a big factor for Stockholm epidemic

- Eradication is not an option, ‘we have to learn to live with this disease’

- Evidence for masks still very weak, and they may yet be counterproductive because sick people believe they can socialize. With all the trends going sharply down, it would make no sense to introduce them now

- Additional immunity such as T cells playing a substantial role in slowing spread – ‘what we see right now is a rapid fall in the number of cases, and of course some kind of immunity has to be involved in that as nothing else has changed.’

- Sweden will be better placed than other countries to limit further waves and outbreaks because of higher immunity

- IFR of Covid-19 in final account will be 0.1% to 0.5% - “and that is not radically different to what we see with the yearly flu”

- Judge me in a year, he says.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
chownah
Posts: 8962
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Coronavirus

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:06 am
Caodemarte wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:47 pm No, the standard comparison country for pubic health measures in Sweden is Norway for obvious reasons (similar populations, cultures, diet, etc.)
No. The following video, which i think EVERYONE should listen to, refutes the above:

Jul 23, 2020 - Swedish Covid-19 chief Anders Tegnell: judge me in a year

https://youtu.be/xh9wso6bEAc
Summary:

In just a few short months Anders Tegnell, architect of Sweden’s unique response to the Covid-19 pandemic, has gone from unknown physician and technocrat to a household celebrity in Sweden and in countries around the world. He is beloved by some (people have even had tattoos made with his face) and intensely disliked by others. Today he is suntanned and relaxed, having just returned from his summer holiday, and wearing an open-necked polo shirt. Here is a summary of what he said:

- In terms of migrants, travel and urban areas Sweden is more similar to the Netherlands and the UK than Norway or Finland

- Lockdown may have made a difference, but closing schools and people being out of work is also bad for public health

- Numbers of new infections arriving at the same time seems to make a big difference, so Stockholm half-term travellers to the Alps a big factor for Stockholm epidemic

- Eradication is not an option, ‘we have to learn to live with this disease’

- Evidence for masks still very weak, and they may yet be counterproductive because sick people believe they can socialize. With all the trends going sharply down, it would make no sense to introduce them now

- Additional immunity such as T cells playing a substantial role in slowing spread – ‘what we see right now is a rapid fall in the number of cases, and of course some kind of immunity has to be involved in that as nothing else has changed.’

- Sweden will be better placed than other countries to limit further waves and outbreaks because of higher immunity

- IFR of Covid-19 in final account will be 0.1% to 0.5% - “and that is not radically different to what we see with the yearly flu”

- Judge me in a year, he says.
The Summar you brought shows Tegnal as saying "IFR of Covid-19 in final account will be 0.1% to 0.5% - “and that is not radically different to what we see with the yearly flu". This really seems like it is misinforming people about the difference between the flu and covid-19. If you want to see what the difference is in Sweden just look at the number of deaths caused by the flu and covid-19......the worldometer site shows sweden with 5,676 deaths currently and the World LIfe Expectancy website shows that the 2018 flu deaths in sweden were 2,701. So far there have been over twice the number of death from covid19 than there were for the flu in 2018 in sweden.....and do note that in sweden by march 15 there had been only 5 deaths so really there were about 5,670 deaths which occured in the four month period from the middle of march to the middle of july......hard to argue that the covid19 deaths are in any way equivalent to the flu deaths.
No need to wait a year to judge mr. tegnal....it is already clear what he is up to namely trying to justify swedens course.....too bad he has to resort to false comparisons in his attempts.
chownah
User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 3048
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Coronavirus (Wellness, Diet & Fitness)

Post by Bundokji »

The comparison with seasonal flu, while reasonable, can also be equally misleading. Usually, we associate the term "flu", whether covid-19 or otherwise, with respiratory symptoms that are infectious. The majority of dying people develop respiratory symptoms before death hence one of the strongest signs of death is the slowing down or cessation of breathing. In such cases, the immune system is probably weak enough to allow weaker types of germs to do damage, which makes it not contagious to healthier people. At the ultimate loss of control and resistance, which is death, the dissolution of the body takes place by worms and other invisible forms of life, mostly bacteria we are told, that are pretty harmless for a living-healthy body.

Breath being largely responsible for fabricating this body, the association between respiratory problems and death is to be expected. Those who died from COVID have something in common with the vast majority who preceded them, that is, they experienced respiratory difficulties before they died. To be reminded that dying from COVID is natural. The focus on the contagious nature of the virus says more about our obsession with control than the nature of death itself.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8799
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Coronavirus

Post by DooDoot »

chownah wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:19 am The Summar you brought shows Tegnal as saying "IFR of Covid-19 in final account will be 0.1% to 0.5% - “and that is not radically different to what we see with the yearly flu". This really seems like it is misinforming people about the difference between the flu and covid-19. If you want to see what the difference is in Sweden just look at the number of deaths caused by the flu and covid-19......the worldometer site shows sweden with 5,676 deaths currently and the World LIfe Expectancy website shows that the 2018 flu deaths in sweden were 2,701. So far there have been over twice the number of death from covid19 than there were for the flu in 2018 in sweden.....
3 deaths is much larger than 1 death via 200%. But in the larger scheme of things, it is trifling. Similarly, 2,701 vs 5,676 deaths from 10,000,000 population is trifling. Also, at he said in the video, statistically, Covid-19 is given special attention. It is unlikely a very frail person in a care-home would be a flu death in 2018. 20% of old people entering a care home in Sweden ordinarily pass away within one month. He said the world must learn to live with Covid-19. I found the entire video very sensible. He will be proven right in 12 months time. You will be proven wrong. Meanwhile, the trump and the pharma companies are signing deals for vaccines that won't really work. Flu vaccine does not stop flu.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
chownah
Posts: 8962
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Coronavirus

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:07 am
chownah wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:19 am The Summar you brought shows Tegnal as saying "IFR of Covid-19 in final account will be 0.1% to 0.5% - “and that is not radically different to what we see with the yearly flu". This really seems like it is misinforming people about the difference between the flu and covid-19. If you want to see what the difference is in Sweden just look at the number of deaths caused by the flu and covid-19......the worldometer site shows sweden with 5,676 deaths currently and the World LIfe Expectancy website shows that the 2018 flu deaths in sweden were 2,701. So far there have been over twice the number of death from covid19 than there were for the flu in 2018 in sweden.....
You will be proven wrong.
Do you mean that I will be proven wrong because World Life Expectancy website didn't report 2,701 flu deaths in sweden in 2018 and that Worldomoter didn't report 5,676 deaths in sweden from covid-19 to date? No need to wait to prove me wrong....do it now....what I have reported is out there right now....why wait? Show me how wrong I am in the statistics I have reported from the sources I have named.

chownah
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8799
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Coronavirus

Post by DooDoot »

chownah wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:46 am I will be proven wrong ...
:geek:

CDC Director says There are More Suicides and Overdoses than COVID Deaths

excerpt video: https://youtu.be/b1f3blDy72A

entire video: https://buck2020.extendedsession.com/se ... -redfield/

"priority is to get schools reopened".... "we don't see significant disease in the children, apart from co-morbidity"

"5 x more children die from flu"...
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
santa100
Posts: 4384
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Coronavirus (Wellness, Diet & Fitness)

Post by santa100 »

Covid19 is NOT the flu:
chownah
Posts: 8962
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Coronavirus

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:55 am
chownah wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:46 am I will be proven wrong ...
:geek:

CDC Director says There are More Suicides and Overdoses than COVID Deaths

excerpt video: https://youtu.be/b1f3blDy72A

entire video: https://buck2020.extendedsession.com/se ... -redfield/

"priority is to get schools reopened".... "we don't see significant disease in the children, apart from co-morbidity"

"5 x more children die from flu"...
I didn't talk about any of this stuff. Why are you using it to reply to me? You can't show me being wrong about this stuff because I never even discussed it or expressed an opinion.

chownah
chownah
Posts: 8962
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Coronavirus (Wellness, Diet & Fitness)

Post by chownah »

Yet another study of less well known effects of covid-19:
The study examined 100 patients who had recently recovered from COVID-19, 28 of whom required oxygen supplementation and two of whom were put on ventilators. There were preexisting conditions including high blood pressure, asthma and diabetes mixed into the group, but no previously known heart failure or cardiomyopathy. Of the group, 78 showed damage to the heart.
https://news.yahoo.com/covid-19-study-s ... 54956.html
chownah
Caodemarte
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Coronavirus (Wellness, Diet & Fitness)

Post by Caodemarte »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... rs-tegnell

Anders Tegnell, who has previously criticised other countries’ strict lockdowns as not sustainable in the long run, told Swedish Radio on Wednesday that there was “quite obviously a potential for improvement in what we have done” in Sweden.

Asked whether too many people in Sweden had died, he replied: “Yes, absolutely,” adding that the country would “have to consider in the future whether there was a way of preventing” such a high toll.

Anders Tegnell
Anders Tegnell. Photograph: Pontus Lundahl/TT News Agency/AFP/Getty Images

Sweden’s death rate per capita was the highest in the world over the seven days to 2 June, figures suggest. This week the government bowed to mounting opposition pressure and promised to set up a commission to look into its Covid-19 strategy.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/23/sw ... -pandemic/
Sweden’s Coronavirus Failure Started Long Before the Pandemic
Many countries have criticized the Swedish government’s lax lockdown, but the deadly mistakes of defunding elder care and decentralizing public health oversight were made before anyone had heard of COVID-19.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8799
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Coronavirus (Wellness, Diet & Fitness)

Post by DooDoot »

Caodemarte wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:35 amSweden’s death rate per capita was the highest in the world over the seven days to 2 June, figures suggest.
Obvious nonsense. Sweden ranked #21 in the world in terms of cases per million. USA has 13,940 cases per million vs Sweden 7,783. Talk about pot calling the kettle black.

Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark and Holland not making face masks compulsory.
WORLD NEWS
JULY 30, 2020 / 4:03 AM / 2 DAYS AGO
Dutch government will not advise public to wear masks - minister

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Dutch government on Wednesday said it will not advise the public to wear masks to slow the spread of coronavirus, asserting that their effectiveness has not been proven

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKCN24U2UJ
Scandinavia holds out against face masks: Below 10% of Nordic citizens say they wear face coverings in public as rest of Europe orders their use.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ublic.html
Attachments
Cases per million.png
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Post Reply