Monastics protesting social injustice

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:22 pm Mr Man
So if Ceisiwr does not know if Trump has committed rape Ceisiwr cannot know if Bhante Sujato has committed slander. It's that simple.
I do not know that Trump has committed rape. Trump has not been found to have committed rape. If I say that Trump is a racist that is lying and slander.
It will be a lot easier to demonstrate Trump not being proved to be a rapist than a racist.

We're dealing with how much weight people want to put on word of mouth. It is word of mouth from a few claimants that Trump inappropriately gropes women. Trump actually brags of this himself so we can assume he at least sometimes does this. AFAIK, the rape allegations stem from his wife during a messy divorce, and she has since walked them back. Did she walk them back because she was saying them out of emotion and frustration and they were technically untrue allegations, or did she walk them back because rape is very hard to prove in a court of law and it would be easier for Trump to sue her for libel than she sue him for rapes that were old even by the time she was saying they happened.

At best, it can be construed as not lying to say that Trump seems to enjoy touching women who do not necessarily want to be touched by him. This could range from "grabbing someone by the p¿$$¥" or an awkward hug or an unwelcome hand on the shoulder. All of these are things that can be considered sexual assault in a court, if we want to stick to trying to use what flies and does not fly in court as a measure of these things.
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like the still turtle,
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:22 pm Mr Man
So if Ceisiwr does not know if Trump has committed rape Ceisiwr cannot know if Bhante Sujato has committed slander. It's that simple.
I do not know that Trump has committed rape. Trump has not been found to have committed rape. If I say that Trump is a racist that is lying and slander.
For somthing to be slander it has to be untrue. You have already acknowledged that you do not know if Trump is a rapist.

It would only be slander if it was an untrue accusation and you do not know if it is untrue.
So, good man, tell what you know,’ then, not knowing, he says, ‘I know,’
You know that Bhante Sujato is committing slander but you don't know if trump has raped anyone? :thinking:

You could say that Ceisiwr believes that what was said was slanderous. But that would just be your opinion.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:22 pm
In this thread Ceisiwr, you seemed to make the claim that Bhante Sujato advocates theft, imply that he is lying and that he has committed slander. None of which have yet been showm to be true.
Stealing from the rich is theft.
Yes but this was never suggested.

The notion of taxation as theft is not supported in the texts or law.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:22 pm
Both you and BrokenBones seem to think he is breaking the monastic rule in the clip but no one has yet been able to show how.
It has been shown, repeatedly over and over again ad nauseam.

No it hasn't. Saying "It has been shown, repeatedly over and over again ad nauseam" doesn't mean that it has.

"A bhikkhu who misrepresents the truth unintentionally commits no offense under this rule"
https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/ ... l#Pc_ChOne

If the truth had been misrepresented it is not for Ceisiwr to determine if it was intentional or not. Witch-hunts are not part of the Buddha's teaching.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man

For somthing to be slander it has to be untrue. You have already acknowledged that you do not know if Trump is a rapist.
Trump has not been convicted of rape, so it is slander to publicly say he is a rapist unless the person in question has evidence. In terms of the Dhamma to say something is true when you do not know it is true is lying. So, unless Sujato knows that Trump is a rapist through some special means denied to law enforcement then he is lying and engaging in slander.
You know that Bhante Sujato is committing slander but you don't know if trump has raped anyone?
For my claims to be false Sujato would have to know that Trump is a rapist. Either he has direct evidence that he is hiding from law enforcement or he has developed psychic powers which he has just revealed to everyone. In any scenario Sujato does not come off well from these comments. If you wish to believe that Sujato really knows that Trump has raped someone then you are free to sink to that level of credulity. That is, of course, your right.
Yes but this was never suggested.

The notion of taxation as theft is not supported in the texts or law.
What was suggested was targeted theft via the means of the state. There is, however, no need to keep beating this dead horse.
If the truth had been misrepresented it is not for Ceisiwr to determine if it was intentional or not. Witch-hunts are not part of the Buddha's teaching.
Like I said, if you wish to believe that Sujato has iddhis or that he has direct hard evidence that Trump is a rapist you can :shrug:
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu

If Ven. Sujato had said "There are serious allegations of rape around Trump" or "I'm concerned that he could possibly be a rapist" or something along those lines then I wouldn't have had an issue. I would react the same if he adopted the ridiculous paedophile claims around Hilary Clinton and had said that Hilary is a child molester.

I suspect if a monk had said that about Hilary Clinton Mr Man wouldn't be going to these lengths to defend said monk.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:52 pm
For somthing to be slander it has to be untrue. You have already acknowledged that you do not know if Trump is a rapist.
Trump has not been convicted of rape, so it is slander to publicly say he is a rapist unless the person in question has evidence. In terms of the Dhamma to say something is true when you do not know it is true is lying. So, unless Sujato knows that Trump is a rapist through some special means denied to law enforcement then he is lying and engaging in slander.
For something to be slander it has to be false and damaging to reputation. Look it up.

You do not know that it is untrue. And did Bhante Sujato damage Donald "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters" Trump's reputation?
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:52 pm
You know that Bhante Sujato is committing slander but you don't know if trump has raped anyone?
For my claims to be false Sujato would have to know that Trump is a rapist. Either he has direct evidence that he is hiding from law enforcement or he has developed psychic powers which he has just revealed to everyone. In any scenario Sujato does not come off well from these comments. If you wish to believe that Sujato really knows that Trump has raped someone then you are free to sink to that level of credulity. That is, of course, your right.
For your claims to be false Trump would have had to have raped someone or the accusations would have to be shown as non-damaging.

I don't know if he has raped anyone and am happy to remain agnostic on this point but I'm sure there are many who believe it to be true. Bhante Sujato may believe it to be true.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:52 pm
Yes but this was never suggested.

The notion of taxation as theft is not supported in the texts or law.
What was suggested was targeted theft via the means of the state. There is, however, no need to keep beating this dead horse.
Which is not a Buddhist notion. Taxation is not considered theft in Buddhism.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:52 pm
If the truth had been misrepresented it is not for Ceisiwr to determine if it was intentional or not. Witch-hunts are not part of the Buddha's teaching.
Like I said, if you wish to believe that Sujato has iddhis or that he has direct hard evidence that Trump is a rapist you can :shrug:
I have never said I believe that. That idea never crossed my mind.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Coëmgenu »

It's worth noting also that, since we're using quasi-legal language, the UK and America have very different conceptions of how to deal with libel, how you go about proving it, etc.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:18 pm It's worth noting also that, since we're using quasi-legal language, the UK and America have very different conceptions of how to deal with libel, how you go about proving it, etc.
As does the Dhamma, so that makes three.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
BrokenBones
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

Nobody knows 100% whether or not another person is a rapist, murderer etc. The point I'm making is that Bhante Sujato does not know and yet declares it to be true that Trump is a rapist. This a flagrant example of 'not knowing he says I know'. It's a very simple point to understand and with no evidence to the contrary is defamatory.

Metta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:05 am Nobody knows 100% whether or not another person is a rapist, murderer etc. The point I'm making is that Bhante Sujato does not know and yet declares it to be true that Trump is a rapist. This a flagrant example of 'not knowing he says I know'. It's a very simple point to understand and with no evidence to the contrary is defamatory.

Metta
And when you said Bhante Sujato defends "law breaking", Is that defamatory?

And when you said "he must have broken numerous Vinaya rules"?
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by confusedlayman »

social injustice is a divine messenger

it tells the suffering and stupidity of this world

it tells us to go to heaven where everything is pleasent and also tells us to get nibbana.

whats the use of fighting here when u are temporary resident or earth itself is temporary planet... even if u do something, people with underlying tendency with matching cause and condition will exhibit themselves.
dont think
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

Mr Man wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:55 am
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:05 am Nobody knows 100% whether or not another person is a rapist, murderer etc. The point I'm making is that Bhante Sujato does not know and yet declares it to be true that Trump is a rapist. This a flagrant example of 'not knowing he says I know'. It's a very simple point to understand and with no evidence to the contrary is defamatory.

Metta
And when you said Bhante Sujato defends "law breaking", Is that defamatory?

And when you said "he must have broken numerous Vinaya rules"?
The article does seem to border on the defence of law breaking and I would use it as evidence in any accusation of defamation. And 'saying one knows when one doesn't' is a clear Vinaya issue. I can quite understand your defence of Bhante but when he puts himself out there as a political activist he leaves himself open to criticism. Much better he sticks to his excellent translations and teaching Dhamma from the Suttas and leave the seedy world of Kings and politicians to us. If he feels it's absolutely necessary to comment on political or other mundane affairs then he should choose his words carefully and seek to calm turbulent waters not stir them up. Monks siding with political ideologies doesn't sit well with me.

Metta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:30 am
Mr Man wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:55 am

And when you said Bhante Sujato defends "law breaking", Is that defamatory?

And when you said "he must have broken numerous Vinaya rules"?
The article does seem to border on the defence of law breaking and I would use it as evidence in any accusation of defamation. And 'saying one knows when one doesn't' is a clear Vinaya issue.
Perhaps you could clearly show where, in the article, Bhante Sujato defends law breaking? Can you give a quote?

And if there are any clear vinaya issues why don't you supply somthing from the vinaya to support this claim

Are you perhaps guilty of claiming you know what in fact you do not know?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:50 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:30 am
Mr Man wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:55 am

And when you said Bhante Sujato defends "law breaking", Is that defamatory?

And when you said "he must have broken numerous Vinaya rules"?
The article does seem to border on the defence of law breaking and I would use it as evidence in any accusation of defamation. And 'saying one knows when one doesn't' is a clear Vinaya issue.
Perhaps you could clearly show where, in the article, Bhante Sujato defends law breaking? Can you give a quote?

And if there are any clear vinaya issues why don't you supply somthing from the vinaya to support this claim

Are you perhaps guilty of claiming you know what in fact you do not know?
You are still banging on about this :roll:
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:36 pm
Mr Man wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:50 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:30 am

The article does seem to border on the defence of law breaking and I would use it as evidence in any accusation of defamation. And 'saying one knows when one doesn't' is a clear Vinaya issue.
Perhaps you could clearly show where, in the article, Bhante Sujato defends law breaking? Can you give a quote?

And if there are any clear vinaya issues why don't you supply somthing from the vinaya to support this claim

Are you perhaps guilty of claiming you know what in fact you do not know?
You are still banging on about this :roll:
People should be willing to back up allegations they make on this board.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:07 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:36 pm
Mr Man wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:50 pm

Perhaps you could clearly show where, in the article, Bhante Sujato defends law breaking? Can you give a quote?

And if there are any clear vinaya issues why don't you supply somthing from the vinaya to support this claim

Are you perhaps guilty of claiming you know what in fact you do not know?
You are still banging on about this :roll:
People should be willing to back up allegations they make on this board.
The irony! Regardless, its obvious at this stage that BorkenBones and I simply do not agree with you. Instead of beating this rather boring dead horse perhaps its time to move on? You do not need to always have the last word you know :shrug:
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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