The Four Noble Truths
The Four Noble Truths
This came up in another thread, which I thought would be interesting to discuss. Please vote and explain the reason for your vote.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: The Four Noble Truths
I voted simultaneously, as per the Aṭṭhakathā. It also makes sense to me that to understand dukkha is to also understand its origin etc.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The Four Noble Truths
I first read the truths in high school
seemed true then, long ago…
seemed true then, long ago…
Re: The Four Noble Truths
Progressively, in stages, because I don't believe in subitism or "sudden awakening."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: The Four Noble Truths
That’s strange considering the suttas which discuss people suddenly awakening just by hearing the Dhamma?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: The Four Noble Truths
The path of seeing is as short as sixteen, apparently twelve, moments, if we are looking at it through that hermeneutic, that of the Abhidharmas. That is an incredibly short time, but it is progressive and sequential all the same.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: The Four Noble Truths
According to SN 56:30 it is simultaneously:
56:30. With Gavampati
At one time several mendicants were staying in the land of the Cetis at Sahajāti. Now at that time, after the meal, on return from alms-round, several senior mendicants sat together in the pavilion and this discussion came up among them: “Reverends, does someone who sees suffering also see the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering?”
When they said this, Venerable Gavampati said to those senior mendicants: “Reverends, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: ‘Someone who sees suffering also sees the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the origin of suffering also sees suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.’”
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
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Re: The Four Noble Truths
Me and the OP have a dialogue concerning this early split in Buddhist Ābhidharmika scholasticism starting here: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=576629#p576629bodom wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:47 am According to SN 56:30 it is simultaneously:
56:30. With Gavampati
At one time several mendicants were staying in the land of the Cetis at Sahajāti. Now at that time, after the meal, on return from alms-round, several senior mendicants sat together in the pavilion and this discussion came up among them: “Reverends, does someone who sees suffering also see the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering?”
When they said this, Venerable Gavampati said to those senior mendicants: “Reverends, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: ‘Someone who sees suffering also sees the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the origin of suffering also sees suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.’”
Also, the Sutta of the Turning of the Dhamma Wheel, a more mainstream source, appears to have them sequentially penetrated to.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: The Four Noble Truths
It depends , if one were to include the practice of sila samadhi that is progressive . But at the moment of penetration one could says it is sudden . But even that the word trainings itself is implying progressive . The realisation came with dhamma eye arose yet it is not final as there are more works to be completed until the task is done therefore isnt that progressive ?
You always gain by giving
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Re: The Four Noble Truths
undertstood step by step after many days of gradual understand. I consider im a slow learner in this ... still baffled that i came to know dependent origination and 4nt are same or inclusive.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Re: The Four Noble Truths
The question appears to be ambiguous to some. Need clarification.
Are you asking the experience of people how they learn and understanding it or the question is whether all four Noble Truths realise at once?
Are you asking the experience of people how they learn and understanding it or the question is whether all four Noble Truths realise at once?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: The Four Noble Truths
In an ever deepening spiral
Re: The Four Noble Truths
I'll let you know when I have understood them...
Re: The Four Noble Truths
The forth Noble Truth is a progressive path, by definition.
If you mean "understand the Four Noble Truths fully, all at the same time" then yes, that happens all at once. However, that's just because the Noble Truths, especially the forth, have progressively cumulated to a full 100% understanding.
If you mean "understand the Four Noble Truths fully, all at the same time" then yes, that happens all at once. However, that's just because the Noble Truths, especially the forth, have progressively cumulated to a full 100% understanding.
It doesn't all happen in one mind-moment—and there was previous work on the Eightfold Path, no matter if they officially took the "Buddhist" precepts or not.
Re: The Four Noble Truths
I'm genuinely asking this, Ceisiwr (although our friction in your other thread doesn't help), and I'm not even asking for an answer: Are you betting everything on subitism/sudden awakening, at the expense of a less-than-ideal practice?
It doesn't work that way: your understanding of Buddhist teachings is progressive—and those understandings are progressively reflecting in your practice.
It doesn't work that way: your understanding of Buddhist teachings is progressive—and those understandings are progressively reflecting in your practice.