Theravada for lay people
Theravada for lay people
I've been considering of late how much the Theravadin tradition might be more geared to monastic life than lay. To the point that it often feels like there is a massive difference between the practice of the lay and the monastic is huge. Any thoughts on this or am I overthinking?
Re: Theravada for lay people
There are plenty of suttas aimed as householders. Householders can also obtain any of the level of awakening bar Arahantship, with the right practice.woodsman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:13 pm I've been considering of late how much the Theravadin tradition might be more geared to monastic life than lay. To the point that it often feels like there is a massive difference between the practice of the lay and the monastic is huge. Any thoughts on this or am I overthinking?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Theravada for lay people
See, it's that exclusivity that troubles me. What's the rationale for that statement?Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:35 pmThere are plenty of suttas aimed as householders. Householders can also obtain any of the level of awakening bar Arahantship, with the right practice.woodsman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:13 pm I've been considering of late how much the Theravadin tradition might be more geared to monastic life than lay. To the point that it often feels like there is a massive difference between the practice of the lay and the monastic is huge. Any thoughts on this or am I overthinking?
Re: Theravada for lay people
There are no accounts of lay people becoming arahants in the suttas. This idea was also rejected by the Theravādins at the 3rd Buddhist council, as recorded in the Kathāvatthu. I'm not sure why this is a problem? Even by reaching sotāpanna level of awakening one has achieved a lot, with only 7 more births at a maximum to go. So, a lay person can make a lot of progress on the path.woodsman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:48 pmSee, it's that exclusivity that troubles me. What's the rationale for that statement?Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:35 pmThere are plenty of suttas aimed as householders. Householders can also obtain any of the level of awakening bar Arahantship, with the right practice.woodsman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:13 pm I've been considering of late how much the Theravadin tradition might be more geared to monastic life than lay. To the point that it often feels like there is a massive difference between the practice of the lay and the monastic is huge. Any thoughts on this or am I overthinking?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Theravada for lay people
It's not exclusivity by design, like the Buddha decided arahantship is only available to monastics. It's about what kind of training and lifestyle is desirable and conducive to completing that final step.
On the one hand a householder life is too distracting and caught up in other things to create the right conditions for total release. At the same time, an anagami (third stage) will at some point simply no longer have the inclination or desire to remain a householder. So it's symbiotic and natural progression rather than a forced move.
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Re: Theravada for lay people
While not common, there are examples of lay people becoming arahants just before death, or becoming an arahant then immediately ordaining. So it is possible. The lay life is typically not conducive to the conditions which give rise to total enlightenment. Has nothing to do with the potential, everything to do with conditions.
Re: Theravada for lay people
Highest possible is anagaminship, though, hardly attainable these days.Householders can also obtain any of the level of awakening bar Arahantship
Re: Theravada for lay people
Hi:
Not sure what you mean, but sound like overthinking.
The Buddha was a monastic, and the teaching is lived at the highest standard as a monastic, but there is plenty of domain for lay people, just
like there is plenty of domain for someone that is not a body builder at a gym, and plenty of use of mathematics for someone who is not a mathematician.
Regards.
Not sure what you mean, but sound like overthinking.
The Buddha was a monastic, and the teaching is lived at the highest standard as a monastic, but there is plenty of domain for lay people, just
like there is plenty of domain for someone that is not a body builder at a gym, and plenty of use of mathematics for someone who is not a mathematician.
Regards.
Re: Theravada for lay people
I agree, very difficult with modern day job, family, etc, huge obstacles in the way.
Personally I believe only way to enter the path is either ordain or live secluded. Even then there may be distractions.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
AN 5.176- Rapture
Re: Theravada for lay people
Nah, entering the path is more than possible in a lay life. Anagaminship, though, is the path almost fully treaded.Personally I believe only way to enter the path is either ordain or live secluded. Even then there may be distractions.
Re: Theravada for lay people
Because the reality is that you can't have it all. It's simply impossible to attain the highest fruit while still owning big house, beautiful wife, happy kids, etc. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and that's especially true for pursuing the Dhamma Path. Just one simple example, monastics automatically have at least an 8-hour advantage over us lay people to solely focus on cultivating the Path, while we're busting our behinds working, sometimes even do 10-14 work hours a day! Then countless of other mundane concerns like paying all sorts of bills, mortgages, loans, investments, biz transactions, etc. So, like I said, you can't have it all!woodsman wrote:See, it's that exclusivity that troubles me. What's the rationale for that statement?
Re: Theravada for lay people
It is gradual training.
You will naturally want to become a monk when you progress on the path.
You will naturally want to become a monk when you progress on the path.
Last edited by SarathW on Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Theravada for lay people
santa100 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:30 amBecause the reality is that you can't have it all. It's simply impossible to attain the highest fruit while still owning big house, beautiful wife, happy kids, etc. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and that's especially true for pursuing the Dhamma Path. Just one simple example, monastics automatically have at least an 8-hour advantage over us lay people to solely focus on cultivating the Path, while we're busting our behinds working, sometimes even do 10-14 work hours a day! Then countless of other mundane concerns like paying all sorts of bills, mortgages, loans, investments, biz transactions, etc. So, like I said, you can't have it all!woodsman wrote:See, it's that exclusivity that troubles me. What's the rationale for that statement?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Theravada for lay people
Hmmm....don't monastics carry the same kind that I do during my work day? Mind is mind surely regardless of what its contents are? So not sure of your extra 8 hours argument. Having a partner, children and earning a living in order to eat and have shelter are a natural part of the perpetuation of our species. Stop that and there would be no more monastics! So it feels really skewed to suggest I would have to step out of the natural order of things to even begin to have the privilege of even a potential for Arhantship. Something feels very wrong there. Sorry.santa100 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:30 amBecause the reality is that you can't have it all. It's simply impossible to attain the highest fruit while still owning big house, beautiful wife, happy kids, etc. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and that's especially true for pursuing the Dhamma Path. Just one simple example, monastics automatically have at least an 8-hour advantage over us lay people to solely focus on cultivating the Path, while we're busting our behinds working, sometimes even do 10-14 work hours a day! Then countless of other mundane concerns like paying all sorts of bills, mortgages, loans, investments, biz transactions, etc. So, like I said, you can't have it all!woodsman wrote:See, it's that exclusivity that troubles me. What's the rationale for that statement?
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Re: Theravada for lay people
Woodsman, it sounds like this is discouraging you and causing doubt. That's not helpful. So why not set the worry about it aside for now, aim for stream entry, and cross this bridge if and when it becomes relevant to your practice?