Sotapanna and five precepts

[santa100]

Though possessing good qualities,
the conscientious and unbiased, acting in the proper spirit,
will become weak
in running Saṅgha proceedings.

The choice is clear:

phpBB .

[thepea]

A sotapanna couldn't even kill an ant if his life depended on it:
That is according to Theravada .

https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=124

One can be 'enlightened" by their own standards and kill insects, drink an occasional beer, tell lies if necessary and so on, and probably find a sutta where it isn't expressly stated that sotapannas never kill. Then cling to that sutta as evidence.
Like Bhikkhu Pesala once said - if one knows vinaya well they can kill a chicken (a Burmese saying).

It is kind of scary - with wrong views anyone of us could wake up tomorrow ( or have some experience in "meditation") and decide we are sotapanna or even an arahat. see https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=5569&start=120
And even start proclaiming it to others - which as well as being cringeworthy, runs the risk of further deepening the wrong views/practices of gullible readers.

From where do you project this “absolute truth” of yours.
Is a sotapanna sentenced to spend the rest of his days sleeping in a bed with bedbugs?
Lice in hair?
A tapeworm?
You are 100% incorrect and your ignorance shines brightly in this matter.

THE ILLUSTRATOR OF ULTIMATE MEANING (PARAMATTHAJOTIKÄ) by Buddhaghosa Pali text society

Herein, the * four states of deprivation ' are the hells, animals, the
ghost realm and the body of Asuras (demons). The meaning is that
even if he takes seven existences, he is nevertheless immune from
[rebirth among] them. Having thus shown his abandoning of the
Round of Action's Result, he now said he cannot do the major six
wrongdoings (cha cäbhithänäni abhabbo katum), pointing out the
abandoning of the Round-of-Action, which is the root ofthat Roundof-
Action's-Result. Major wrongdoings (abhithäna) are gross wrongdoings.
These, which he cannot do, are six. They are stated in the
Book of Ones in the way beginning ' Bhikkhus, it is impossible, it
cannot happen, that a person perfected in his view should deprive
his mother of life ' (A. i. 27; M. iii. 64-5), and they should be understood
as the actions consisting in matricide, parricide. Arahanticide,
drawing the blood [of a Perfect One], causing schism in the Community,
and choosing someone other [than the Enlightened One] for
one's teacher. They are mentioned more for the purpose of condemning
the ordinary man's state, since actually a Noble Disciple
whose view is perfected does not even deprive an ant of life (cf.
MA. iv, 108); for an ordinary man does do even such greatly reprehensible
major wrongdoings because his view is not perfected (has no
excellence), but one whose seeing is perfected (has excellence) is
unable to do them. The incapability is mentioned here in order to
show that he does not do them even in the next existence; for in the
next existence, even if he does not know about his own noblediscipleship,
he does not, in virtue of the essential idea [of his
nature], do either these six or [190] [incur] the five risks (see A. iii,
204-6) beginning with normal killing of breathing thing

This Commentary by Buddhghosa, has been preserved and revered by millenia by the Theravada.
How could it be that a monk or nun or layman or woman who has eradicated wrongview would kill . They understand kamma, they understand the result of kamma.

Answer my questions?
I want you to explain this to me.
I don’t care about 1000 yr old potentially mistranslated scriptures.

[thepea]

With your logic there is no proof or way to prove your suttas are accurate. They may have been altered in a way to keep the masses practicing incorrectly and keep insight from arising. Any person who suggests tweaking a portion is met with these scriptures as authority and law. These same scriptures that most likely have been translated inaccurately in order to suppress the essence of the truth.
Now according to your argument by strictly forcing people to abide by and produce a scripture to back their position, is in effect censoring then or forcing them to a certain predetermined set of rules. The game is rigged in your favour, it’s censorship.

By "suggesting tweaking a portion" of the Sutta/Vinaya, you've already rigged the game in your favour! You have done exactly what the Buddha has been warning us to avoid in His Drum Peg Sutta all along.

Blah blah blah, drop your suttas for a moment and what does your direct experience tell you.
The teacher is within.

[SDC]

Though possessing good qualities,
the conscientious and unbiased, acting in the proper spirit,
will become weak
in running Saṅgha proceedings.

The choice is clear:

I'm going to go down with the ship.

[santa100]

Blah blah blah, drop your suttas for a moment and what does your direct experience tell you.

Blah blah blah, drop your "direct experience" for a moment and what do the suttas tell you.

[SDC]

I don’t care about 1000 yr old potentially mistranslated scriptures.

Potentially?

A sotāpanna would know whether or not the scriptures were wrongly translated. Or perhaps the sutta that says a sotāpanna is "in line with the Dhamma" was wrongly translated, and therefore a sotāpanna actually won't know whether or not the scriptures are in line with the Dhamma, so they wouldn't know whether or not they were wrongly translated, since he isn't sure because they were potentially translated wrongly. Sounds like this sort of sotāpatti is pretty agonizing.

[lostitude]

Lying can be done at times, say when refusal to wear a mask in public currently. I feel it important to stand against the demonic forces in power.
(...)
If this resonates with even 1% or less of population it does not make it ignorant or delusion. Majority can and often are manipulated, this is herd mentality.
(...)
With your logic there is no proof or way to prove your suttas are accurate. They may have been altered in a way to keep the masses practicing incorrectly and keep insight from arising.
(...)
These same scriptures that most likely have been translated inaccurately in order to suppress the essence of the truth.

I can see a pattern here.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 1417718261

[Sam Vara]

Lying can be done at times, say when refusal to wear a mask in public currently. I feel it important to stand against the demonic forces in power.
(...)
If this resonates with even 1% or less of population it does not make it ignorant or delusion. Majority can and often are manipulated, this is herd mentality.
(...)
With your logic there is no proof or way to prove your suttas are accurate. They may have been altered in a way to keep the masses practicing incorrectly and keep insight from arising.
(...)
These same scriptures that most likely have been translated inaccurately in order to suppress the essence of the truth.

I can see a pattern here.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 1417718261

There's a bigger, more significant and fruitful pattern as well. Basically about what type of knowledge is properly foundational and is to be trusted. We need to relate to our own personal experience, but the possibility of delusion means that we need this relationship to be guided in some way. In this thread, the suggested guidance is scripture. But conversely, we can't just randomly choose some scripture to offer guidance; it needs to be chosen on the basis of direct experience, as this is what we need to deal with...

A perennial problem, and an interesting one.

[thepea]

Blah blah blah, drop your suttas for a moment and what does your direct experience tell you.

Blah blah blah, drop your "direct experience" for a moment and what do the suttas tell you.

How do you drop “direct experience”?
With this direct experience I have the answers, I don’t need to look at suttas.
Let’s say I was drinking a ginger ail and my friend was drinking a beer, and I accidentally grabbed his glass and had a sip I would be guilty of stealing and consuming alcohol. It would not be my volition but it could happen.
You apologize to your friend and get on with it.

[thepea]

I don’t care about 1000 yr old potentially mistranslated scriptures.

Potentially?

A sotāpanna would know whether or not the scriptures were wrongly translated. Or perhaps the sutta that says a sotāpanna is "in line with the Dhamma" was wrongly translated, and therefore a sotāpanna actually won't know whether or not the scriptures are in line with the Dhamma, so they wouldn't know whether or not they were wrongly translated, since he isn't sure because they were potentially translated wrongly. Sounds like this sort of sotāpatti is pretty agonizing.

What kind of riddle is this???

[thepea]

Lying can be done at times, say when refusal to wear a mask in public currently. I feel it important to stand against the demonic forces in power.
(...)
If this resonates with even 1% or less of population it does not make it ignorant or delusion. Majority can and often are manipulated, this is herd mentality.
(...)
With your logic there is no proof or way to prove your suttas are accurate. They may have been altered in a way to keep the masses practicing incorrectly and keep insight from arising.
(...)
These same scriptures that most likely have been translated inaccurately in order to suppress the essence of the truth.

I can see a pattern here.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 1417718261

Don’t you dare accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist!!!
Back off!!

[Dhamma Chameleon]

Let’s say I was drinking a ginger ail and my friend was drinking a beer, and I accidentally grabbed his glass and had a sip I would be guilty of stealing and consuming alcohol. It would not be my volition but it could happen.
You apologize to your friend and get on with it.

You would not be guilty as you did not have the volitional intention to steal or consume alcohol, which is an essential ingredient. I don't remember them by heart but there are four or five requirements to be karmically responsible for an action. Including the intention, knowing it's wrong and having a choice in the matter.

[rhinoceroshorn]

.

Lying can be done at times, say when refusal to wear a mask in public currently. I say medical to protest even though I can wear one if push cane to shove. I feel it important to stand against the demonic forces in power.
I also lie on taxes at times to avoid paying more than I can afford as it will cause me to lose my family home, I don’t have all required insurances to perform some work I do for business, say I do simple electrical work for someone but I don’t hold an electrical certificate, I don’t get permits for small jobs even though permits are required by the city, I just can’t get them done in time and the cost is to great so I just do the job without and toll the dice.

In this dhammatalk ven. Thanissaro explains lying is the only precept in right speech. Never ever lie.

[confusedlayman]

Let’s say I was drinking a ginger ail and my friend was drinking a beer, and I accidentally grabbed his glass and had a sip I would be guilty of stealing and consuming alcohol. It would not be my volition but it could happen.
You apologize to your friend and get on with it.

You would not be guilty as you did not have the volitional intention to steal or consume alcohol, which is an essential ingredient. I don't remember them by heart but there are four or five requirements to be karmically responsible for an action. Including the intention, knowing it's wrong and having a choice in the matter.

even if choice is not there, there should be absention from wrong act

[Dhamma Chameleon]

even if choice is not there, there should be absention from wrong act

No. You cannot be held responsible for unintentional actions. If you have no choice in the matter (eg because it's an accident) this can even happen to an arahant and he would remain blameless.