Dependent origination and sleeping

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
justindesilva
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by justindesilva »

form wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:59 pm
justindesilva wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:45 am
form wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:44 am

Sorry, I don't know how to explain to you properly.
In dependant origination the second conditioning is avidya paccaya sankara and the next is sankara paccaya vingnana.
Sankara is mainly threefold kaya sankara, vaci sankara and citta sankara while kaya sankara is connected to breathing.
While sleeping one breaths and the condition sankara is partially active. Hence Paticca samuppada while sleeping is not redundant and is active. Secondly rev.Punnaji thero explains that ayu sankara ( not often discussed) is metabolism which is also an active " sankara" during sleep. Hence when sankara is active Dependant co origination becomes active with next as nama Rupa and follows.
I dunno about so many pali terms. I usually use modern psychology to understand Buddhism.
Please open in utube " mano citta vingnana" by Bhante rev. Punnaji thera. It may suit your way of understanding Buddhism just as me. I follow him and his many other sermons on utube as is explained with science. He was a western medicine practitioner before ordaining and had doctorates in psychology along with his knowledge of Tripitaka.
( Pl. try reading my two books on web www.cosmo-bodh.com
, sharing my search on Buddhism with science)
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:16 amThe issue of lucid dreaming is interesting. As form indicated in a previous post, dreams is covered excessively in both western psychology and eastern philosophy. I am more interested in sleeping and its relation to how we conceive or comprehend "absence", or linking it more directly to DO as per justindesilva's input.
But who is this "we"? Are you assuming that sleep is experienced the same by all people?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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confusedlayman
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by confusedlayman »

Today, wrapped in a double cloak,
my head shaven,
having wandered for alms,
I sit at the foot of a tree
and attain the state of no-thought.
All ties — human & divine — have been cut.
Having cast off all effluents,
cooled am I, unbound.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:14 pmObviously there is no one correct way of approaching this, but i was thinking more in the line of the relationship between sleeping and the idea of non-existence. The role it plays in objectifying our experience including our sense of time, and the ideas we hold about death, what is temporary and what is permanent. What does it mean to witness.


It is usually said that on average, humans spend about third of their life time sleeping. It is interesting how little attention is paid to it.
You mean that in mainstream culture, little attention is paid to sleeping?
Taboos exist for a reason.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:11 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:16 amThe issue of lucid dreaming is interesting. As form indicated in a previous post, dreams is covered excessively in both western psychology and eastern philosophy. I am more interested in sleeping and its relation to how we conceive or comprehend "absence", or linking it more directly to DO as per justindesilva's input.
But who is this "we"? Are you assuming that sleep is experienced the same by all people?
"We", in this context, is our ability to communicate or think through language, which involves absence. For example, if you and i were having a coffee and you spoke about your mother, who was not sitting with us (physically absent), to what extent this ability to communicate at a certain time and space ideas descriptive of another time/space has to do with sleeping.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:18 pm
Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:14 pmObviously there is no one correct way of approaching this, but i was thinking more in the line of the relationship between sleeping and the idea of non-existence. The role it plays in objectifying our experience including our sense of time, and the ideas we hold about death, what is temporary and what is permanent. What does it mean to witness.


It is usually said that on average, humans spend about third of their life time sleeping. It is interesting how little attention is paid to it.
You mean that in mainstream culture, little attention is paid to sleeping?
Taboos exist for a reason.
In main stream culture, quantity does matter. When knowledge is not a value in itself, but linked to how we "feel", joyful experiences are sought in a way to last longer and vice versa. Also sleeping plays a role in distinguishing subjective time from objective time, objective time being measured by our watches, while subjective time is our perception/feeling of time lapsing.

The relationship between time and value is an interesting one. For example, the Buddha advised young monks not to sleep too much and to begin meditating at dawn, meditation involving presence of mind/mindfulness. The orderliness of the dhamma implies that this has also to do with the contemplation of death being encourage, which is a reminder that our time here is limited. There is another interesting similarity between our ideas of sleeping, death and absence (which is rooted in presence). In my culture, for example, sleeping is described as "the smaller death".
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:30 pm"We", in this context, is our ability to communicate or think through language, which involves absence. For example, if you and i were having a coffee and you spoke about your mother, who was not sitting with us (physically absent), to what extent this ability to communicate at a certain time and space ideas descriptive of another time/space has to do with sleeping.
A generalized "we".

My point is that there can be great individual differences in how different people experience sleep. To the point that some general, unifying "we" doesn't make sense anymore.
For example, I know that I experience sleeping quite differently than most people I know.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:47 pm
Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:30 pm"We", in this context, is our ability to communicate or think through language, which involves absence. For example, if you and i were having a coffee and you spoke about your mother, who was not sitting with us (physically absent), to what extent this ability to communicate at a certain time and space ideas descriptive of another time/space has to do with sleeping.
A generalized "we".

My point is that there can be great individual differences in how different people experience sleep. To the point that some general, unifying "we" doesn't make sense anymore.
For example, I know that I experience sleeping quite differently than most people I know.
And who said that experience has to be free of generalization. The issue of generalization is often raised when it causes a distortion of meaning or leads to wrong conclusions. Unless our experience shares many similarities, there wont be differences to be accounted for to begin with. Sleeping, unlike dreaming, is inferred and not directly experienced, but seems to be a major component in constructing an experience that is both similar enough among people to have the ability to communicate absence, and different enough to make sense of the words being used (comparing and contrasting).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:01 pmAnd who said that experience has to be free of generalization. The issue of generalization is often raised when it causes a distortion of meaning or leads to wrong conclusions. Unless our experience shares many similarities, there wont be differences to be accounted for to begin with.
And yet different people can use the same word, the same name for something, but mean something different by it. Who is distorting? Who is coming to the wrong conclusions? Who is the arbiter of reality? Who decides how things really are?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:22 pm
Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:01 pmAnd who said that experience has to be free of generalization. The issue of generalization is often raised when it causes a distortion of meaning or leads to wrong conclusions. Unless our experience shares many similarities, there wont be differences to be accounted for to begin with.
And yet different people can use the same word, the same name for something, but mean something different by it. Who is distorting? Who is coming to the wrong conclusions? Who is the arbiter of reality? Who decides how things really are?
I fail to see the relevance of all of this! Maybe you are objecting to an issue that never been raised?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:27 pmI fail to see the relevance of all of this! Maybe you are objecting to an issue that never been raised?
I'm pointing out the limits of the way this topic was conceived.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:10 am I'm pointing out the limits of the way this topic was conceived.
Maybe my lack of understanding your point because i can't relate it the context being presented. The idea that different words can mean different things to different people remains a possibility applicable to every act of communication, but it is not often raised unless there is a reason to do so. In fact, from that perspective, raising it in this way seems to be an act of generalization.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

The following sutta might be of relevance:
There are, bhikkhus, these five disadvantages of falling asleep with forgetful mindfulness and without thorough understanding. Which five? One sleeps in discomfort, wakes up in discomfort, sees evil dreams, the devas do not protect one, and what is unclean gets emitted.{1} These, bhikkhus, are the five disadvantages of falling asleep with forgetful mindfulness and without thorough understanding.

There are, bhikkhus, these five advantages of falling asleep with set up mindfulness and thorough understanding. Which five? One sleeps in comfort, wakes up in comfort, does not see evil dreams, the devas protect one, and what is unclean does not get emitted. These, bhikkhus, are the five advantages of falling asleep with set up mindfulness and thorough understanding.
What distinguishes a dreaming state from an awakening state is the act of sleeping (rather than the act of dreaming). Sleeping is analogous to death from the first person POV in the sense that one does not directly experience either, but rather infers them through the lapse of time or a third person POV.

This raises questions about the state of awakening in the Buddha's teachings. On the one hand, un-forgetful mindfulness seems to protect the person even while asleep where distinctions between dreaming and being awake seem irrelevant. On the other hand, the state of awakening itself is described as the "deathless" as if the act of sleeping itself is irrelevant.

How should this be understood? What is absent or irrelevant in the waking state, dreaming or sleeping?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
santa100
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by santa100 »

Bundokji wrote:This raises questions about the state of awakening in the Buddha's teachings. On the one hand, un-forgetful mindfulness seems to protect the person even while asleep where distinctions between dreaming and being awake seem irrelevant. On the other hand, the state of awakening itself is described as the "deathless" as if the act of sleeping itself is irrelevant.
The confusion probably stems from some wrong assumption/premises. From Ven. Bodhi's translation of AN 5.210:
“Bhikkhus, there are these five dangers for one who falls asleep with a muddled mind, lacking clear comprehension. What five? He sleeps badly; he awakens miserably; he has bad dreams; the deities do not protect him; and semen is emitted. These are the five dangers for one who falls asleep with a muddled mind, lacking clear comprehension.

“Bhikkhus, there are these five benefits for one who falls asleep mindfully and with clear comprehension. What five? He sleeps well; he awakens happily; he does not have bad dreams; deities protect him; and semen is not emitted. These are the five benefits for one who falls asleep mindfully and with clear comprehension.”
Notice it says one with mindfulness/clear comprehension does not have bad dreams, not not having any dream at all. So even for one with mindfulness, the functions of sleep and dream are still there and distinct from the state of staying awake. It's just that for one who is mindful, their sleep and dream states are clean, healthy, and wholesome. But they're still distinct states: waking, sleeping, dreaming.
Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

santa100 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 3:52 am Notice it says one with mindfulness/clear comprehension does not have bad dreams, not not having any dream at all. So even for one with mindfulness, the functions of sleep and dream are still there and distinct from the state of staying awake. It's just that for one who is mindful, their sleep and dream states are clean, healthy, and wholesome. But they're still distinct states: waking, sleeping, dreaming.
I remember reading somewhere that Arahants do not dream at all, while other sources likened the awakened state to lucid dreaming. Your input seems to indicate that mindfulness and clear comprehension have to do with cleansing the mind/ending defilements. I was wondering about the relationship between being awake, the meaning of attaining the deathless and the ending of defilements. The later is focused on a duality of wholesome and unwholesome where the wholesome is a measure of awakening, while the former is focused on negating meaningful differences between dreaming and awakening in relation to what constitutes mindful action.

Another interesting aspect in this sutta is the emitting of semen, which is a minor offense to monastics that only requires confession. Most male humans encounter their first sexual experience through what is described as "wet dream" or through masturbation, where a "real" female counterpart is absent. As to the relationship between this duality and a higher realm, masturbation and becoming are interrelated when we think of kamma as a whole field where emitting semen (consciousness/the seed) leads to re-birth. Again, in worldly affairs, being dead of asleep is equivalent to being unconscious.

How would all of this help the practitioner differentiate between intentionality and craving (the moisture)? emitting seed while in samsara (dreaming/sleeping state) seems to be unintentional.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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