Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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rightviewftw
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by rightviewftw »

robertk wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:07 am But if there is any intention to lie or kill this a sotapanna doesn't do.
Hi, i wonder on what basis you are making these definitive statements?

Perhaps you meant; 'according to commentaries...a sotapanna doesn't do'?
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by confusedlayman »

rightviewftw wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:55 am
robertk wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:07 am But if there is any intention to lie or kill this a sotapanna doesn't do.
Hi, i wonder on what basis you are making these definitive statements?

Perhaps you meant; 'according to commentaries...a sotapanna doesn't do'?
if a sotapanna has to lie, he has self view and idenditiy view.. he is trying to protect his idendity because his idendity dont want to be attacked hence sota cant lie...
dont think
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

robertk wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:07 am
thepea wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:37 pm
robertk wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:58 pm A sotapanna can still build a house but he wouldn't deliberately kill insects while doing so. Even an arhat may kill without intention , eg the Venerable Cakkhupala who was blind and used to walk up and down treading on caterpillars killing dozens of them. The other monks asked the Buddha about this and he explained that he was arahat.

Also accidently drinking a mouthful of beer , as dhamma chameleon explained, is without intention. It is not breaking the precept.
Right so intention, volition is the defining factor.
The mind is of importance not so much the body.
The sotapanna can kill, steal, lie, sexual misconduct, and consume alcohol in body. The sotapanna knows the mind they carry and that is of all importance.
When you say the ' sotapanna can kill, steal, lie, sexual misconduct, and consume alcohol in body' it makes me wonder what you mean. The examples we have of not seeing an insect and treading on one, or taking a gulp of beer mistakenly thinking it is was a bottle of ginger ale are clear. But if there is any intention to lie or kill this a sotapanna doesn't do.
There is no logical reason for this. Telling a child a small lie to prevent him from doing something that cannot supervise or deal with at the time is not going to earn you a trip to the lower destinations.
Perhaps when a medical dr comes out and puts their opinion about corona virus on the line stating that it’s not worth this overreaction, and then the medical officials throw these Drs to the wolves, lying and discrediting them.
This will earn you a ticket to burn.
I mean we have kind of come to the conclusion that a sotapanna can kill, take what’s not theirs, etc...
It’s the intention of mind that conveys the karmic punishment.
I’m only aware of the writings about sota not being able to kill buddha, mother or father etc...
As I understand buddhas teachings, when the bodily senses shut down and when the mind sense door shuts down this the glimpse of nibanna or ultimate reality is experienced.
This is the frution of the final insight knowledges of the first path.
At this point the wisdom experienced is permanent and unshakable and this individual cannot commit a sin which creates karma that leads to lower states.
Doesn’t mean they are perfected in morality.
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robertk
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by robertk »

thepea wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:19 am
robertk wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:07 am
thepea wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:37 pm

Right so intention, volition is the defining factor.
The mind is of importance not so much the body.
The sotapanna can kill, steal, lie, sexual misconduct, and consume alcohol in body. The sotapanna knows the mind they carry and that is of all importance.
When you say the ' sotapanna can kill, steal, lie, sexual misconduct, and consume alcohol in body' it makes me wonder what you mean. The examples we have of not seeing an insect and treading on one, or taking a gulp of beer mistakenly thinking it is was a bottle of ginger ale are clear. But if there is any intention to lie or kill this a sotapanna doesn't do.
There is no logical reason for this. Telling a child a small lie to prevent him from doing something that cannot supervise or deal with at the time is not going to earn you a trip to the lower destinations.
Perhaps when a medical dr comes out and puts their opinion about corona virus on the line stating that it’s not worth this overreaction, and then the medical officials throw these Drs to the wolves, lying and discrediting them.
This will earn you a ticket to burn.
I mean we have kind of come to the conclusion that a sotapanna can kill, take what’s not theirs, etc...
It’s the intention of mind that conveys the karmic punishment.

When we talk about very subtle examples I agree it is difficult to ascertain whether there was any actual breaking - such as a tiny white lie to a child .
The Commentary has this, which demonstrates differences in degrees of wrongness:
20. ' By blamability ': in the case of breathing things beginning
with animals that are devoid of special qualities, killing of breathing
things is [relatively] less blamable in the case of a small one
and more blamable in the case of one with a large physical frame.
Why? Because of the greater magnitude of the means [needed];
and when the means are equal, [it depends] on the greater magnitude
of the object, [namely, the breathing thing.] But in the case of
human beings, etc., endowed with special qualities, killing-breathingthings
is [relatively] less blamable in the case of one with small
special qualities; [29] and when there is equality of special qualities
and of the physical frame, then the lesser blamableness should be
understood to reside in the [relative] mildness of the defilements and
of the active process adopted, and the greater blamableness in their
greater violence. So too with the rest. But unlike killing-breathing-
things, etc., [whose blamability varies,] the opportunity-fornegligence-
due-to-liquor-wine-and-besotting-drink is always greatly
blamable. Why? Because it obstructs the Noble Ones* True Idea
by inducing even madness in a human being. That is how the
explanation should be known by blamability.


thepea: I’m only aware of the writings about sota not being able to kill buddha, mother or father etc...
I quoted this earlier from the Commentary which explains this point.
THE ILLUSTRATOR OF ULTIMATE MEANING (PARAMATTHAJOTIKÄ) by Buddhaghosa Pali text society

Herein, the * four states of deprivation ' are the hells, animals, the
ghost realm and the body of Asuras (demons). The meaning is that
even if he takes seven existences, he is nevertheless immune from
[rebirth among] them. Having thus shown his abandoning of the
Round of Action's Result, he now said he cannot do the major six
wrongdoings (cha cäbhithänäni abhabbo katum), pointing out the
abandoning of the Round-of-Action, which is the root ofthat Roundof-
Action's-Result. Major wrongdoings (abhithäna) are gross wrongdoings.
These, which he cannot do, are six
. They are stated in the
Book of Ones in the way beginning ' Bhikkhus, it is impossible, it
cannot happen, that a person perfected in his view should deprive
his mother of life ' (A. i. 27; M. iii. 64-5), and they should be understood
as the actions consisting in matricide, parricide. Arahanticide,
drawing the blood [of a Perfect One], causing schism in the Community,
and choosing someone other [than the Enlightened One] for
one's teacher. They are mentioned more for the purpose of condemning
the ordinary man's state, since actually a Noble Disciple
whose view is perfected does not even deprive an ant of life (c
f.
MA. iv, 108); for an ordinary man does do even such greatly reprehensible
major wrongdoings because his view is not perfected (has no
excellence), but one whose seeing is perfected (has excellence) is
unable to do them.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by robertk »

thepea: As I understand buddhas teachings, when the bodily senses shut down and when the mind sense door shuts down this the glimpse of nibanna or ultimate reality is experienced.
This is the frution of the final insight knowledges of the first path.
I don't think so, as the process of attaining nibbana (according to the Theravada ) the lokuttara citta clearly realises nibbana- There is citta, cetasikas still arising in a process. No shutting down.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

robertk wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:35 am
thepea: As I understand buddhas teachings, when the bodily senses shut down and when the mind sense door shuts down this the glimpse of nibanna or ultimate reality is experienced.
This is the frution of the final insight knowledges of the first path.
I don't think so, as the process of attaining nibbana (according to the Theravada ) the lokuttara citta clearly realises nibbana- There is citta, cetasikas still arising in a process. No shutting down.
I believe mahasi sayadaw describes this process as passing through the insight knowledges. Mr Goenka also explained the process in similarity to mahasi. Mr G also explains this process as I’ve explained. The shutting down of sensory doors, the ultimate reality is experienced.
As this has occurred to me, it is clear the buddhas path to nibanna.
With regards to morality I believe it depends on where you are with regards to your paramitas as to the level of moral purity you will be capable of.
If you have filled your parmis to only 25% across the board then this experience is available to you, but you only have 25% moral purity.
If you have completed all parmis but one to 100% and this other parmi is at 10% then this experience is not available to this individual. When this individual reaches 25% with this remaining parmi then this individual attains sotapanna but will be capable of higher moral standards.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by robertk »

thepea wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:51 am
robertk wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:35 am
thepea: As I understand buddhas teachings, when the bodily senses shut down and when the mind sense door shuts down this the glimpse of nibanna or ultimate reality is experienced.
This is the frution of the final insight knowledges of the first path.
I don't think so, as the process of attaining nibbana (according to the Theravada ) the lokuttara citta clearly realises nibbana- There is citta, cetasikas still arising in a process. No shutting down.
I believe mahasi sayadaw describes this process as passing through the insight knowledges. Mr Goenka also explained the process in similarity to mahasi. Mr G also explains this process as I’ve explained. The shutting down of sensory doors, the ultimate reality is experienced.
As this has occurred to me, it is clear the buddhas path to nibanna.
the mahasi system has been criticized by Pa-auk people on this very point.
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books13/Pa- ... d-2010.pdf
In ordinarylanguage, we may say that you must see absolute zero.
But this does not mean that the mind is absolute zero: the mind
is fully aware:
it is the object that the mind knows and sees which
is absolute zero. The object that the mind is fully aware of and
knows and sees i
s the Nibbāna element: the unformed element
Usually I find Pa Auk more at odds than Mahasi, with my understanding, but in this case I think he is right.

The number of people who have told me they had experienced nibbana is above double figures. An old friend of mine in Thailand even had a certificate from, I think, Section 5 at wat Mahadhatu in Bangkok (she can laugh about it now). It really is so common to overestimate ,( crossfingers I don't wake up one day and decide I must be a some stage or another).
It is not a joke as it will stop someone dead and even convince them the wrong path is the right one.

Even the first stage of Namaruparicheddi nana must be an extraordinary blow to wrong view. Usually the sense doors are perceived and held to all day long, but at that stage, as I understand it , briefly the mind door is revealed and so the difference between nama and rupa is vividly known-the complete inconsequence of those moments of sense experience starts to be seen. Startling and wondrous, I guess.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

robertk wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:37 pm
thepea wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:51 am
robertk wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:35 am

I don't think so, as the process of attaining nibbana (according to the Theravada ) the lokuttara citta clearly realises nibbana- There is citta, cetasikas still arising in a process. No shutting down.
I believe mahasi sayadaw describes this process as passing through the insight knowledges. Mr Goenka also explained the process in similarity to mahasi. Mr G also explains this process as I’ve explained. The shutting down of sensory doors, the ultimate reality is experienced.
As this has occurred to me, it is clear the buddhas path to nibanna.
the mahasi system has been criticized by Pa-auk people on this very point.
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books13/Pa- ... d-2010.pdf
In ordinarylanguage, we may say that you must see absolute zero.
But this does not mean that the mind is absolute zero: the mind
is fully aware:
it is the object that the mind knows and sees which
is absolute zero. The object that the mind is fully aware of and
knows and sees i
s the Nibbāna element: the unformed element
Usually I find Pa Auk more at odds than Mahasi, with my understanding, but in this case I think he is right.

The number of people who have told me they had experienced nibbana is above double figures. An old friend of mine in Thailand even had a certificate from, I think, Section 5 at wat Mahadhatu in Bangkok (she can laugh about it now). It really is so common to overestimate ,( crossfingers I don't wake up one day and decide I must be a some stage or another).
It is not a joke as it will stop someone dead and even convince them the wrong path is the right one.

Even the first stage of Namaruparicheddi nana must be an extraordinary blow to wrong view. Usually the sense doors are perceived and held to all day long, but at that stage, as I understand it , briefly the mind door is revealed and so the difference between nama and rupa is vividly known-the complete inconsequence of those moments of sense experience starts to be seen. Startling and wondrous, I guess.
You seem unstable with what you feel the right path or who to trust or follow.
For me there is no doubt whatsoever.
The practice and path is so clear, there is nothing else needed to learn to convince me of this.
When the final goal or ultimate truth is experienced it quenches that thirst or those burning questions and doubts.
I need to continue to practice and try to live according to noble 8fold path. This is not without challenges as a father of two growing children. But again I have quenched my thirst and am patient in the knowledge of what awaits.

My parmis are each at 25% minimum, I may have more in some. Much work to do, but as a noble decouple it is my duty to always express the truth with regards to buddhas teachings, and to stand firm to those who attempt to discredit the dhamma, and the middle fertile ground.

You have not responded to the parmi aspect of my post with relation to sotapanna and imperfected morals.
I would be interested to hear your words.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

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thepea wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:14 pm The practice and path is so clear, there is nothing else needed to learn to convince me of this.
When the final goal or ultimate truth is experienced it quenches that thirst or those burning questions and doubts.
If everything is so clear then why were you fretting about certain monasteries not being "right type" for you to ordain? According to you, *you're* the right type. As the suttas say, a sotapanna has the Right view and is in line with the Dhamma, which is exactly what you are claiming, so it really shouldn't matter where you go, since you're beyond any need for instruction. All you need now is a kuti and alms food, right? You can do that in any monastery where the time belongs to you to do with it what you see fit. Pretty sure you can find that in any country.

In the last few months you have been inconsistent on this matter...I guess I'm just confused about what you're actually claiming to understand, and since you decided not to fully address my earlier line of questioning in this thread, I'm hoping you could settle it now.

You've abandoned a mountain of suffering with only a handful of sand remaining, will be extinguished in max 7 lives, don't have to worry about lower rebirths and can practice without a teacher wherever you go? I guess the real question is, why are you the opposite of chill? Why such desperation and aggressiveness when you're criticized? Why such rage about masks? You're irreversibly inclined towards Nibbana. Why aren't you more happy about it?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

SDC wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:04 pm
If everything is so clear then why were you fretting about certain monasteries not being "right type" for you to ordain? According to you, *you're* the right type. As the suttas say, a sotapanna has the Right view and is in line with the Dhamma, which is exactly what you are claiming, so it really shouldn't matter where you go, since you're beyond any need for instruction. All you need now is a kuti and alms food, right? You can do that in any monastery where the time belongs to you to do with it what you see fit. Pretty sure you can find that in any country.

In the last few months you have been inconsistent on this matter...I guess I'm just confused about what you're actually claiming to understand, and since you decided not to fully address my earlier line of questioning in this thread, I'm hoping you could settle it now.

You've abandoned a mountain of suffering with only a handful of sand remaining, will be extinguished in max 7 lives, don't have to worry about lower rebirths and can practice without a teacher wherever you go? I guess the real question is, why are you the opposite of chill? Why such desperation and aggressiveness when you're criticized? Why such rage about masks? You're irreversibly inclined towards Nibbana. Why aren't you more happy about it?
Support for practice, to develop in parmis is important.
If a monestary doesn’t agree with you, to foreign or doing a different practice, then this is not suitable. The vibration will not be harmonious.
If I answer your questions in the second part, I will be banned again.
In short...
I don’t think I’ve been inconsistent, at least I don’t feel this way.
Why do I have to be chill, with our human rights being stripped from us? I think the awakened saints among the sleepy masses are Inclined to rise up for the betterment of mankind.
What aggressiveness or criticize are you talking about?
I am frustrated with moderation at DW, and being censored and unable to discuss current events.

This is all I will say, I don’t desire to be banned again. I’m happy to answer any questions you may have in pm.

This experience happened for me as I’m certain it happens for many who practice accordingly.
I’ve never kept this secret, I just don’t understand why after the years spent here I’m still met with such unacceptance?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
thepea wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:41 pm I am frustrated with moderation at DW, and being censored and unable to discuss current events.
You've been told countless times that that's outside of the scope of this forum, and relevant only at Dharma Wheel Engaged.

Your insistence on trying to discuss these matters here (at a forum where it's not relevant) rather than at a forum where it is relevant, is your choice.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:42 am Greetings,
thepea wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:41 pm I am frustrated with moderation at DW, and being censored and unable to discuss current events.
You've been told countless times that that's outside of the scope of this forum, and relevant only at Dharma Wheel Engaged.

Your insistence on trying to discuss these matters here (at a forum where it's not relevant) rather than at a forum where it is relevant, is your choice.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Well that’s part of the frustration, as these matters are interconnected.
So it is difficult to convey my point of view, when I’m limited in what I can bring into light.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings thepea,
thepea wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:58 am Well that’s part of the frustration, as these matters are interconnected.
Believe me, I understand they're connected. See this post for an example of the interconnection.

And I did like your comment about "the awakened saints among the sleepy masses are Inclined to rise up for the betterment of mankind" but if that rising is "engaged", you know where that belongs.
thepea wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:58 am So it is difficult to convey my point of view, when I’m limited in what I can bring into light.
I think the best thing would be to stop resisting DWE and to use it for its intended purpose rather than to pretend it doesn't exist, or that such scope hasn't been moved there.... because it has, and it's time to move on.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by thepea »

Fulfilling ones parmis leads to perfected moralty.it is quite a misunderstanding to impart perfected morality upon a sotapanna.
There are some unrealistic and dangerous belief structures entwined with Buddhism. With regards to sila and samadhi.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna

Post by SDC »

thepea wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:41 pm Support for practice, to develop in parmis is important.
If a monestary doesn’t agree with you, to foreign or doing a different practice, then this is not suitable. The vibration will not be harmonious.
A sotāpanna, who knows the extent of that accomplishment, wouldn't need harmony according to the suttas (which you don't trust because they "might" be wrong). A sotāpanna is a source of Right View, lower fetters broken, inclined towards Nibbana, free from states of woe - they need food and empty lodgings to refine that view into arahantship. Indeed a lay sotāpanna can break all of the precepts according to the suttas, but that is not the point I'm arguing here. I'm saying that a sotāpanna knows what his right view is, and doesn't need ideal external conditions to maintain it.

Sorry for having such a high standard for the state of sotāpatti, but I've grown weary of many of the contemporary notions that treat it as a choice, making it so much less than it is described.
thepea wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:41 pm Why do I have to be chill, with our human rights being stripped from us? I think the awakened saints among the sleepy masses are Inclined to rise up for the betterment of mankind.
Human rights are for the world. They are for the betterment of the world around you, external to you. In these terms, the world is the counterpart of you, the congruence of which would mean harmony for you. Wanting a better world means the change to arrange the congruence is external, and up to others, dependent on the world. Instead of ridding the experience of that need altogether, which is the real freedom described by the Buddha, the better world becomes the need.

I'm not saying this to provoke you into talking about worldly issues. I'm saying it because I don't think is about the worldly issues at all. I'd rather not look in that direction in this discussion. I don't believe the sotāpanna, let alone the arahant, has any need whatsoever for that congruence between internal and external in the terms described above. He has understood concern for that counterpart of his Self in that world was nothing other than the desire to tend to the concerns of his Self, which he now can see is not the reason for his experience and never was. Now he is concerned with the Law of Dhamma, where he is now striving to reach the end of the world.

I understand your concern about dangerous ideas being entwined in Buddhism, but considering I'm here lobbying for a very high standard found in the suttas, I doubt that can be called dangerous. Dangerous ideas that minimize and trivialize things that are very important. I'm quite sure you'll agree with me on that pont.
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