Hi, i wonder on what basis you are making these definitive statements?
Perhaps you meant; 'according to commentaries...a sotapanna doesn't do'?
if a sotapanna has to lie, he has self view and idenditiy view.. he is trying to protect his idendity because his idendity dont want to be attacked hence sota cant lie...
There is no logical reason for this. Telling a child a small lie to prevent him from doing something that cannot supervise or deal with at the time is not going to earn you a trip to the lower destinations.robertk wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:07 amWhen you say the ' sotapanna can kill, steal, lie, sexual misconduct, and consume alcohol in body' it makes me wonder what you mean. The examples we have of not seeing an insect and treading on one, or taking a gulp of beer mistakenly thinking it is was a bottle of ginger ale are clear. But if there is any intention to lie or kill this a sotapanna doesn't do.thepea wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:37 pmRight so intention, volition is the defining factor.robertk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:58 pm A sotapanna can still build a house but he wouldn't deliberately kill insects while doing so. Even an arhat may kill without intention , eg the Venerable Cakkhupala who was blind and used to walk up and down treading on caterpillars killing dozens of them. The other monks asked the Buddha about this and he explained that he was arahat.
Also accidently drinking a mouthful of beer , as dhamma chameleon explained, is without intention. It is not breaking the precept.
The mind is of importance not so much the body.
The sotapanna can kill, steal, lie, sexual misconduct, and consume alcohol in body. The sotapanna knows the mind they carry and that is of all importance.
When we talk about very subtle examples I agree it is difficult to ascertain whether there was any actual breaking - such as a tiny white lie to a child .thepea wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:19 amThere is no logical reason for this. Telling a child a small lie to prevent him from doing something that cannot supervise or deal with at the time is not going to earn you a trip to the lower destinations.robertk wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:07 amWhen you say the ' sotapanna can kill, steal, lie, sexual misconduct, and consume alcohol in body' it makes me wonder what you mean. The examples we have of not seeing an insect and treading on one, or taking a gulp of beer mistakenly thinking it is was a bottle of ginger ale are clear. But if there is any intention to lie or kill this a sotapanna doesn't do.
Perhaps when a medical dr comes out and puts their opinion about corona virus on the line stating that it’s not worth this overreaction, and then the medical officials throw these Drs to the wolves, lying and discrediting them.
This will earn you a ticket to burn.
I mean we have kind of come to the conclusion that a sotapanna can kill, take what’s not theirs, etc...
It’s the intention of mind that conveys the karmic punishment.
I quoted this earlier from the Commentary which explains this point.thepea: I’m only aware of the writings about sota not being able to kill buddha, mother or father etc...
THE ILLUSTRATOR OF ULTIMATE MEANING (PARAMATTHAJOTIKÄ) by Buddhaghosa Pali text society
Herein, the * four states of deprivation ' are the hells, animals, the
ghost realm and the body of Asuras (demons). The meaning is that
even if he takes seven existences, he is nevertheless immune from
[rebirth among] them. Having thus shown his abandoning of the
Round of Action's Result, he now said he cannot do the major six
wrongdoings (cha cäbhithänäni abhabbo katum), pointing out the
abandoning of the Round-of-Action, which is the root ofthat Roundof-
Action's-Result. Major wrongdoings (abhithäna) are gross wrongdoings.
These, which he cannot do, are six. They are stated in the
Book of Ones in the way beginning ' Bhikkhus, it is impossible, it
cannot happen, that a person perfected in his view should deprive
his mother of life ' (A. i. 27; M. iii. 64-5), and they should be understood
as the actions consisting in matricide, parricide. Arahanticide,
drawing the blood [of a Perfect One], causing schism in the Community,
and choosing someone other [than the Enlightened One] for
one's teacher. They are mentioned more for the purpose of condemning
the ordinary man's state, since actually a Noble Disciple
whose view is perfected does not even deprive an ant of life (cf.
MA. iv, 108); for an ordinary man does do even such greatly reprehensible
major wrongdoings because his view is not perfected (has no
excellence), but one whose seeing is perfected (has excellence) is
unable to do them.
I don't think so, as the process of attaining nibbana (according to the Theravada ) the lokuttara citta clearly realises nibbana- There is citta, cetasikas still arising in a process. No shutting down.thepea: As I understand buddhas teachings, when the bodily senses shut down and when the mind sense door shuts down this the glimpse of nibanna or ultimate reality is experienced.
This is the frution of the final insight knowledges of the first path.
I believe mahasi sayadaw describes this process as passing through the insight knowledges. Mr Goenka also explained the process in similarity to mahasi. Mr G also explains this process as I’ve explained. The shutting down of sensory doors, the ultimate reality is experienced.robertk wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:35 amI don't think so, as the process of attaining nibbana (according to the Theravada ) the lokuttara citta clearly realises nibbana- There is citta, cetasikas still arising in a process. No shutting down.thepea: As I understand buddhas teachings, when the bodily senses shut down and when the mind sense door shuts down this the glimpse of nibanna or ultimate reality is experienced.
This is the frution of the final insight knowledges of the first path.
the mahasi system has been criticized by Pa-auk people on this very point.thepea wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:51 amI believe mahasi sayadaw describes this process as passing through the insight knowledges. Mr Goenka also explained the process in similarity to mahasi. Mr G also explains this process as I’ve explained. The shutting down of sensory doors, the ultimate reality is experienced.robertk wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:35 amI don't think so, as the process of attaining nibbana (according to the Theravada ) the lokuttara citta clearly realises nibbana- There is citta, cetasikas still arising in a process. No shutting down.thepea: As I understand buddhas teachings, when the bodily senses shut down and when the mind sense door shuts down this the glimpse of nibanna or ultimate reality is experienced.
This is the frution of the final insight knowledges of the first path.
As this has occurred to me, it is clear the buddhas path to nibanna.
Usually I find Pa Auk more at odds than Mahasi, with my understanding, but in this case I think he is right.In ordinarylanguage, we may say that you must see absolute zero.
But this does not mean that the mind is absolute zero: the mind
is fully aware: it is the object that the mind knows and sees which
is absolute zero. The object that the mind is fully aware of and
knows and sees is the Nibbāna element: the unformed element
You seem unstable with what you feel the right path or who to trust or follow.robertk wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:37 pmthe mahasi system has been criticized by Pa-auk people on this very point.thepea wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:51 amI believe mahasi sayadaw describes this process as passing through the insight knowledges. Mr Goenka also explained the process in similarity to mahasi. Mr G also explains this process as I’ve explained. The shutting down of sensory doors, the ultimate reality is experienced.
As this has occurred to me, it is clear the buddhas path to nibanna.
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books13/Pa- ... d-2010.pdfUsually I find Pa Auk more at odds than Mahasi, with my understanding, but in this case I think he is right.In ordinarylanguage, we may say that you must see absolute zero.
But this does not mean that the mind is absolute zero: the mind
is fully aware: it is the object that the mind knows and sees which
is absolute zero. The object that the mind is fully aware of and
knows and sees is the Nibbāna element: the unformed element
The number of people who have told me they had experienced nibbana is above double figures. An old friend of mine in Thailand even had a certificate from, I think, Section 5 at wat Mahadhatu in Bangkok (she can laugh about it now). It really is so common to overestimate ,( crossfingers I don't wake up one day and decide I must be a some stage or another).
It is not a joke as it will stop someone dead and even convince them the wrong path is the right one.
Even the first stage of Namaruparicheddi nana must be an extraordinary blow to wrong view. Usually the sense doors are perceived and held to all day long, but at that stage, as I understand it , briefly the mind door is revealed and so the difference between nama and rupa is vividly known-the complete inconsequence of those moments of sense experience starts to be seen. Startling and wondrous, I guess.
If everything is so clear then why were you fretting about certain monasteries not being "right type" for you to ordain? According to you, *you're* the right type. As the suttas say, a sotapanna has the Right view and is in line with the Dhamma, which is exactly what you are claiming, so it really shouldn't matter where you go, since you're beyond any need for instruction. All you need now is a kuti and alms food, right? You can do that in any monastery where the time belongs to you to do with it what you see fit. Pretty sure you can find that in any country.
Support for practice, to develop in parmis is important.SDC wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:04 pm
If everything is so clear then why were you fretting about certain monasteries not being "right type" for you to ordain? According to you, *you're* the right type. As the suttas say, a sotapanna has the Right view and is in line with the Dhamma, which is exactly what you are claiming, so it really shouldn't matter where you go, since you're beyond any need for instruction. All you need now is a kuti and alms food, right? You can do that in any monastery where the time belongs to you to do with it what you see fit. Pretty sure you can find that in any country.
In the last few months you have been inconsistent on this matter...I guess I'm just confused about what you're actually claiming to understand, and since you decided not to fully address my earlier line of questioning in this thread, I'm hoping you could settle it now.
You've abandoned a mountain of suffering with only a handful of sand remaining, will be extinguished in max 7 lives, don't have to worry about lower rebirths and can practice without a teacher wherever you go? I guess the real question is, why are you the opposite of chill? Why such desperation and aggressiveness when you're criticized? Why such rage about masks? You're irreversibly inclined towards Nibbana. Why aren't you more happy about it?
You've been told countless times that that's outside of the scope of this forum, and relevant only at Dharma Wheel Engaged.
Well that’s part of the frustration, as these matters are interconnected.retrofuturist wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:42 am Greetings,
You've been told countless times that that's outside of the scope of this forum, and relevant only at Dharma Wheel Engaged.
Your insistence on trying to discuss these matters here (at a forum where it's not relevant) rather than at a forum where it is relevant, is your choice.
Metta,
Paul.
Believe me, I understand they're connected. See this post for an example of the interconnection.
I think the best thing would be to stop resisting DWE and to use it for its intended purpose rather than to pretend it doesn't exist, or that such scope hasn't been moved there.... because it has, and it's time to move on.
A sotāpanna, who knows the extent of that accomplishment, wouldn't need harmony according to the suttas (which you don't trust because they "might" be wrong). A sotāpanna is a source of Right View, lower fetters broken, inclined towards Nibbana, free from states of woe - they need food and empty lodgings to refine that view into arahantship. Indeed a lay sotāpanna can break all of the precepts according to the suttas, but that is not the point I'm arguing here. I'm saying that a sotāpanna knows what his right view is, and doesn't need ideal external conditions to maintain it.
Human rights are for the world. They are for the betterment of the world around you, external to you. In these terms, the world is the counterpart of you, the congruence of which would mean harmony for you. Wanting a better world means the change to arrange the congruence is external, and up to others, dependent on the world. Instead of ridding the experience of that need altogether, which is the real freedom described by the Buddha, the better world becomes the need.