AN 1.268-277confusedlayman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:21 pm how can sotapanna kill or lie or steal? do u have sutta? or u lowering the sotapnna attainment? uninteltionally is ok but intentionally is not ok.
Sotapanna and five precepts
Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
what it says related to this post?SDC wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:25 pmAN 1.268-277confusedlayman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:21 pm how can sotapanna kill or lie or steal? do u have sutta? or u lowering the sotapnna attainment? uninteltionally is ok but intentionally is not ok.
accomiplished in view refers to all 4 stagers
view means right view... sota has right view.. both mundane and supermundane
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
You asked me to provide a sutta describing the things that a sotāpanna cannot do. I provided the sutta.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:29 pmwhat it says related to this post?SDC wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:25 pmAN 1.268-277confusedlayman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:21 pm how can sotapanna kill or lie or steal? do u have sutta? or u lowering the sotapnna attainment? uninteltionally is ok but intentionally is not ok.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
No. It doesn't mean all four. While the arahant is accomplished in view, that is not how they are described in the suttas. They are one "with defilements ended" or "with taints destroyed" or liberated by such and such or "attained the goal". Do you want a sutta for this too?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
accomplished in view is right view? i see no other view than thisSDC wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:44 pmNo. It doesn't mean all four. While the arahant is accomplished in view, that is not how they are described in the suttas. They are one "with defilements ended" or "with taints destroyed" or liberated by such and such or "attained the goal". Do you want a sutta for this too?
im not talking about defilements or taints or attained goal ... im looking for 'accomplished
wordview"
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
Here is the sotāpanna:confusedlayman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:14 pmaccomplished in view is right view? i see no other view than thisSDC wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:44 pmNo. It doesn't mean all four. While the arahant is accomplished in view, that is not how they are described in the suttas. They are one "with defilements ended" or "with taints destroyed" or liberated by such and such or "attained the goal". Do you want a sutta for this too?
And:SN 56.50 wrote:So too, bhikkhus, for a noble disciple, a person accomplished in view who has made the breakthrough, the suffering that has been utterly destroyed and eliminated is more, while that which remains is trifling. Compared to the former mass of suffering that has been destroyed and eliminated, the latter is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction, as there is a maximum of seven more lives.
Here is the arahant:SN 12.33 wrote:When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple has purified and cleansed these two kinds of knowledge—knowledge of the principle and knowledge of entailment—he is then called a noble disciple who is accomplished in view, accomplished in vision, who has arrived at this true Dhamma, who sees this true Dhamma, who possesses a trainee’s knowledge, a trainee’s true knowledge, who has entered the stream of the Dhamma, a noble one with penetrative wisdom, one who stands squarely before the door to the Deathless.
So it is not "all four" like you said.Iti 44 wrote:Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge.
Now here is what the arahant cannot do:
So AN 1.268-277 is about the sotāpanna, not the arahant.AN 9.7 wrote:A mendicant who is perfected—with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment—can’t transgress in five respects. A mendicant with defilements ended can’t deliberately take the life of a living creature, take something with the intention to steal, have sex, tell a deliberate lie, or store up goods for their own enjoyment like they did as a lay person.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
All indications are that sotapanna is the beginning of the end. To use your words, it is entry to the master level. Sure, a sotapanna is referred to as one in training, but that seems to only be in a sense that they know for sure what that training is, and what they have to do. The original comment that had me compelled to enter this discussion was your phrasing of the suttas having the "potential" for mistakes, which is no doubt a potential for some, but not for one who understands the training:
I would take the term "fish sauce" to be someone who has a strong grasp on "meaning and phrasing", but has yet to establish that view. Also good to keep in mind that one cannot know the extent of what remains and how long they will have to work to establish that view:SN 12.33 wrote:When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple has purified and cleansed these two kinds of knowledge—knowledge of the principle and knowledge of entailment—he is then called a noble disciple who is accomplished in view, accomplished in vision, who has arrived at this true Dhamma, who sees this true Dhamma, who possesses a trainee’s knowledge, a trainee’s true knowledge, who has entered the stream of the Dhamma, a noble one with penetrative wisdom, one who stands squarely before the door to the Deathless.
Again, I hope the high standard I keep referring to is coming through in these suttas, as I think you would appreciate it.SN 22.101 wrote:When, bhikkhus, a carpenter or a carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.
“So too, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu dwells devoted to development, even though no such knowledge occurs to him: ‘So much of my taints has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier,’ yet when they are worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that they have been worn away.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
Yes, I know the training. Yes, I know the path and the work to be done.SDC wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:02 pmAll indications are that sotapanna is the beginning of the end. To use your words, it is entry to the master level. Sure, a sotapanna is referred to as one in training, but that seems to only be in a sense that they know for sure what that training is, and what they have to do. The original comment that had me compelled to enter this discussion was your phrasing of the suttas having the "potential" for mistakes, which is no doubt a potential for some, but not for one who understands the training:
I would take the term "fish sauce" to be someone who has a strong grasp on "meaning and phrasing", but has yet to establish that view. Also good to keep in mind that one cannot know the extent of what remains and how long they will have to work to establish that view:SN 12.33 wrote:When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple has purified and cleansed these two kinds of knowledge—knowledge of the principle and knowledge of entailment—he is then called a noble disciple who is accomplished in view, accomplished in vision, who has arrived at this true Dhamma, who sees this true Dhamma, who possesses a trainee’s knowledge, a trainee’s true knowledge, who has entered the stream of the Dhamma, a noble one with penetrative wisdom, one who stands squarely before the door to the Deathless.
Again, I hope the high standard I keep referring to is coming through in these suttas, as I think you would appreciate it.SN 22.101 wrote:When, bhikkhus, a carpenter or a carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.
“So too, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu dwells devoted to development, even though no such knowledge occurs to him: ‘So much of my taints has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier,’ yet when they are worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that they have been worn away.
Yes, I understand aparent and ultimate view.
You seem to be pointing to this high level of standard, in a way that seems to suggest that I am not capable or worth of having practiced appropriately.
I’m in all complete honesty, openly letting you know that this is my reality. I have entered the stage of master apprentice. Cracked the dam, there is no power that can prevent this dam from breaking within 7 lifetimes according to suttas. I don’t give much importance to these things. This gift as explained offers me no doubt in the path, practice and what is required to do to finish the task.
But, what you seem to be failing to understand is parmis.
My parmis are not complete they are at a minimum of 25% in all categories and perhaps greater in some.
I may have to work, raise my children, battle the government against these horrific unwarranted Covid extremes, etc.... to build up in strong determination, compassion for others, or a variety of karmic reasons.
I am a very moral individual, strong willed, determined, a pain in the ass to some, but very moral. In no way a pushover but moral.
A saint in today’s times if you will, an angel. I will not rest in the face of tyranny against humanity. This doesn’t mean I will kill or physically hurt people, but I can crack the sheep with my cane in order to move them to safety or greener pastures. If you are a wooly creature and feel my cane you may be angered with me and think I am a horrible person. This is ok, I’ll bear this burden as I know the correct action required as I possess higher wisdom.
Regardless of what I do, this journey is ending.
There is an aspect of buddha in the teachings being overlooked or not given its proper importance. As a sotapanna, why wouldn’t I try to point this out in my own words and understandings. The real concern is why am I censored whenever I try to bring this to light?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
A sotapanna has full conviction, confidence in the teachings. What were those posts in the topic about "Buddhism in your own 2 words"?
Was that just having some fun or poetry? For example,
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=579495#p579495
Reading some of your posts literally over there makes it look like you have some doubts, unless there is another explanation?
Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
I’m a dhammist, not a Buddhist.DNS wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:49 pmA sotapanna has full conviction, confidence in the teachings. What were those posts in the topic about "Buddhism in your own 2 words"?
Was that just having some fun or poetry? For example,
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=579495#p579495
Reading some of your posts literally over there makes it look like you have some doubts, unless there is another explanation?
Not even the slightest doubt in the dhamma.
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
What's the difference, in your opinion?thepea wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pmI’m a dhammist, not a Buddhist.DNS wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:49 pmA sotapanna has full conviction, confidence in the teachings. What were those posts in the topic about "Buddhism in your own 2 words"?
Was that just having some fun or poetry? For example,
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=579495#p579495
Reading some of your posts literally over there makes it look like you have some doubts, unless there is another explanation?
Not even the slightest doubt in the dhamma.
How does the Dhamma differ from Theravada?
Or how does the Dhamma differ from EBT?
Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
Dhamma is the pure teachings of buddha, Buddhism is a belief structure or religion.DNS wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:19 amWhat's the difference, in your opinion?thepea wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pmI’m a dhammist, not a Buddhist.DNS wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:49 pm
A sotapanna has full conviction, confidence in the teachings. What were those posts in the topic about "Buddhism in your own 2 words"?
Was that just having some fun or poetry? For example,
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=579495#p579495
Reading some of your posts literally over there makes it look like you have some doubts, unless there is another explanation?
Not even the slightest doubt in the dhamma.
How does the Dhamma differ from Theravada?
Or how does the Dhamma differ from EBT?
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Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
Okay, but that still doesn't answer how they are different. Does Dhamma include monks, nuns? Does Dhamma include 4NT, 8FP?
How is the meditation practice different? What are the differences in doctrine? Does Dhamma include rebirth?
Re: Imperfect morality and sotapanna
thepea
That is a little vague.Dhamma is the pure teachings of buddha, Buddhism is a belief structure or religion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”