Vaccination and ordination

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
thepea
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Vaccination and ordination

Post by thepea »

I have been reading about these new vaccinations and how they will contain animal rna, and may bond with your genetic sequence effectively genetically modifying you in some animal human hybrid technically.
I believe one question for ordination is are you human?
Can this effect ones ability to ordain?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by Ceisiwr »

thepea wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:07 pm I have been reading about these new vaccinations and how they will contain animal rna, and may bond with your genetic sequence effectively genetically modifying you in some animal human hybrid technically.
I believe one question for ordination is are you human?
Can this effect ones ability to ordain?
Do you have any journal or link we can look at? Also, “human” isn’t necessarily biological in the Dhamma. For example, the Buddha was no longer “human”.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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greenjuice
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by greenjuice »

That is nonsense. Don't spread unfactual stories.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:19 pm Do you have any journal or link we can look at? Also, “human” isn’t necessarily biological in the Dhamma. For example, the Buddha was no longer “human”.
By that logic though, would an arahant be denied entry into the Buddhist Order?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:55 pm Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:19 pm Do you have any journal or link we can look at? Also, “human” isn’t necessarily biological in the Dhamma. For example, the Buddha was no longer “human”.
By that logic though, would an arahant be denied entry into the Buddhist Order?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Laymen can’t become Arahants.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:06 pm Laymen can’t become Arahants.
If they can become paccekabuddhas, I don't see why not.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:09 pm Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:06 pm Laymen can’t become Arahants.
If they can become paccekabuddhas, I don't see why not.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Don’t they arise when there is no sangha?
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:12 pm Don’t they arise when there is no sangha?
They do... so if someone can do it when the teachings aren't known, it seems backwards to suggest they can't do it when they are.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
Suranga
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by Suranga »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:06 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:55 pm Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:19 pm Do you have any journal or link we can look at? Also, “human” isn’t necessarily biological in the Dhamma. For example, the Buddha was no longer “human”.
By that logic though, would an arahant be denied entry into the Buddhist Order?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Laymen can’t become Arahants.
They can, If they do then they will become monks or pass away.What ever the case after become arahants they will not stay mudane life. I saw a sutta that explaining this.cannot remember where.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Suranga wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:06 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:55 pm Greetings,


By that logic though, would an arahant be denied entry into the Buddhist Order?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Laymen can’t become Arahants.
They can, If they do then they will become monks or pass away.What ever the case after become arahants they will not stay mudane life. I saw a sutta that explaining this.cannot remember where.
I think this is a commentarial thing which spread so much that everyone thinks it's canonical. :rofl:
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:19 pm Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:12 pm Don’t they arise when there is no sangha?
They do... so if someone can do it when the teachings aren't known, it seems backwards to suggest they can't do it when they are.

Metta,
Paul. :)
You are comparing a Buddha to an Arahant. Different skill sets.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by Ceisiwr »

Suranga wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:06 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:55 pm Greetings,


By that logic though, would an arahant be denied entry into the Buddhist Order?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Laymen can’t become Arahants.
They can, If they do then they will become monks or pass away.What ever the case after become arahants they will not stay mudane life. I saw a sutta that explaining this.cannot remember where.
I’m not aware of any sutta case where a layman becomes an Arahant and then joined the sangha? I think there might be a sutta where a layman did fully awaken and then died. On the whole, without nearly instantly dying, laymen can’t become Arahants. The heretical idea of laymen becoming Arahants was rejected by the Theravādins at the 3rd council. Therefore, it must be rejected.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Craig,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:48 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:19 pm Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:12 pm Don’t they arise when there is no sangha?
They do... so if someone can do it when the teachings aren't known, it seems backwards to suggest they can't do it when they are.
You are comparing a Buddha to an Arahant. Different skill sets.
Now you're clutching at straws.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:54 pm Greetings Craig,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:48 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:19 pm Greetings,


They do... so if someone can do it when the teachings aren't known, it seems backwards to suggest they can't do it when they are.
You are comparing a Buddha to an Arahant. Different skill sets.
Now you're clutching at straws.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Not really. You asked how an awakened being can become a monk given the rule. I’m stating that no such situation has ever arisen, as far as we know. Arahants and Buddhas are no longer human. The rule does not apply to Buddha’s because they rediscover the ancient path to the ancient city and for Arahants it simply never applies because they never join the sangha.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Vaccination and ordination

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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