Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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SDC
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by SDC »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:17 am The part of the text I am referring to is something the Sangha has been suffering with for a long time, but it isn't the Sangha's fault, not the original Vinaya's, someone has altered the text.
I think you should explore the suttas more. The coals/snake analogy is tame compared to some other themes. That is why I'm acting so perplexed with your views. According to your criteria, you'd find issues throughout the entire Canon.

I do appreciate the kindness. :smile:
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

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I am trying to look into it. First the Buddha says He doesn't bow down to anyone, but this isn't true, from what I've learned, He makes prostrations constantly to other Buddhas as well as the Gods who pay Him reverence, when such homage is applicable. He is a very humble being and once even said killing Him would be less sinful than killing an animal prepared for sacrifice, because of how innocent the animal was. Someone that humble and Loving wouldn't have a problem of bowing down to someone. It is generally the demons of this world who tend not to prostrate before others, like in the Koran when Iblis didn't prostrate before Adam when asked to by God based on the excuse that Adam was formed from clay and Iblis was formed from fire, with a false sense of prestige in the matter. Buddha has no false prestige, He is like the servant of all, with no problems giving His Metta to others in whichever way they ask.

I am not sure how this text came about that claims is where we should get our monastic laws from it, but there seem to be some problems in it, however I am finding a few authentic Buddhist philosophical concepts in it as well, but these are basic things like the cause of suffering, etc. There just seem to be some problems with the whole text as one, it does not seem like an infallible treatise to turn to from what I've read. There seem to be a whole lot of problems with this text. For example here:
Around the same time, a number of Vajjian monks from Vesālī ate, slept, and bathed as much as they liked. Doing so, and not reflecting properly, they had sexual intercourse, but without first renouncing the training and revealing their weakness. After some time, they were affected by loss of relatives, loss of property, and illness.
This is not how the laws of karma work. The Sangha is not under a curse, and the Buddha does not curse others in such a way. Sex is a part of a Loving relationship with someone, it can even create an Eternal connection between two individuals, it is sacred and should be treated as such. Becoming a monk doesn't mean your sexual intercourse would become polluted, in fact becoming a monk cleans up your life, and if one had sex they would likely be better off karmically as a monk than as someone who was living a materialistic lifestyle doing it, because they would have less attachments. It may be a hindrance to full Spiritual Life, and I understand monks are supposed to give up on sexual intercourse for a time, but it is not evil. The more I read into this text the more it seems like the person who wrote it, was someone who wrote it based off of the ideas in their own life trying to distance the Sangha from material life, however often in a harmful, and sometimes very negative way, which gave rise to many alterations. Think about this whole thing like a human being, because that is what you are, that is what the Buddha claimed to be, and since you are a Buddhist helping other human beings, the proper moral framework has to be laid down.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by Coëmgenu »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:33 am we as the Sangha
This could serve as a springboard for other conversations. Are you on DharmaWheel as well?

In most kinds of Buddhism, Theravāda as well by extension, the lay people are not part of the saṁgha, much less the āryasaṁgha that refuge is taken in. In some kinds of Buddhism, I'm thinking particularly of some New Kamakura schools of Japanese Buddhism, there is no monasticism, and instead there are either priesthoods or the entirety is a collective of the laity. In these contexts, the "saṁgha" refers to members of the Buddhist faith communities in question. In Theravāda Buddhism, as well as most kinds of Mahāyāna Buddhism, the saṁgha is the collective of the ordained monks.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
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illuminating
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by Mahabrahma »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:01 am
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:33 am we as the Sangha
This could serve as a springboard for other conversations. Are you on DharmaWheel as well?

In most kinds of Buddhism, Theravāda as well by extension, the lay people are not part of the saṁgha, much less the āryasaṁgha that refuge is taken in. In some kinds of Buddhism, I'm thinking particularly of some New Kamakura schools of Japanese Buddhism, there is no monasticism, and instead there are either priesthoods or the entirety is a collective of the laity. In these contexts, the "saṁgha" refers to members of the Buddhist faith communities in question. In Theravāda Buddhism, as well as most kinds of Mahāyāna Buddhism, the saṁgha is the collective of the ordained monks.
When Buddha first started preaching after attaining Enlightenment, the way to signify one was His Disciple, was to say "I take refuge in the Buddha, The Dharma, and the Sangha", this was the case for monastics, lay people, and kings, so I follow that standard. In my opinion anyone who wants to take refuge in the three Jewels can, and they should not be barred from taking refuge, because refuge is refuge. However I understand the need for monastic codes and lay followers as well as other levels of Buddhists, but they can all be part of the Sangha. I understand that there are different types of Sanghas, but the three Jewels should be open to everyone, as long as they want to be a Buddhists.

And yes I am on DharmaWheel as "Brahma".
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SDC
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

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Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:47 am I am trying to look into it.
Please do. There are thousands of suttas and many different themes all directed towards freedom from suffering. Your position so far would call many consistencies into question.
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by confusedlayman »

the main reason for xx is the good feeling we get..

that good feeling arise only when semen passes in penis tube...

if semen is not moving (semen retentive) then there wont be feeling.. then whats the point of having xx

what it has to do with buddhist practice?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

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SDC wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:37 am
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:47 am I am trying to look into it.
Please do. There are thousands of suttas and many different themes all directed towards freedom from suffering. Your position so far would call many consistencies into question.
Thank you. I suffer quite a lot in my life and it isn't always for me the primary goal to get out of the suffering. My primary goal is to Love others as much as I possibly can, and this has put me through a lot of suffering at times, when taking on others' karma when I had no negative karma of my own. Most Buddhists do similar things, and the people who have followed me throughout my life have made great sacrifices. What I want to say is that I am particularly interested in Vipassana and the state of being without mental suffering, a state of non-self and letting go, as it is a meditation I have been doing recently. I believe in Buddhism wholeheartedly and it's need to bring everyone out of suffering, and that is the goal of the Buddhas, to alleviate the heavy burden of suffering this world has. True suffering, however, the kind of suffering I am not referring to when it comes to my own is the suffering of not having Love for others. There is no greater loss, and that is why I am so grateful for Buddhism, it teaches others how to Love and attain Enlightenment, a state of perfect Love for everyone.
Last edited by Mahabrahma on Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by Mahabrahma »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:40 am the main reason for xx is the good feeling we get..

that good feeling arise only when semen passes in penis tube...

if semen is not moving (semen retentive) then there wont be feeling.. then whats the point of having xx

what it has to do with buddhist practice?
The main reason for sex is for adults to form long lasting Spiritual connection through sacred marriage and procreate and have children. It's about Love. Those that misuse sex in lustful ways are hurting themselves and others, and that is what the Buddha preached against.
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

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I draw most of my thoughts about Enlightenment from the Lotus Sutra and in it's current form I find it presented very nicely. There are many other Buddhist books I've read, as well as some of the Pali canon, but this is the first time I've encountered a text that so clearly contradicted my beliefs about Buddhism, referring to the theravāda collection on monastic law, monks’ rules and their analysis, the chapter on expulsion (_pārājika_). Maybe you misunderstand my views, but my points were clear why this particular text seems to have serious problems. I haven't encountered anything like it in all of the things I've read, in a negative light I see it.

Anyway this started out about me calling out the text for having an allusion to sexual assault in it, which clearly isn't Buddhist. It's not a pleasant subject so we don't have to talk about it, but we cannot ignore it.
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SDC
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

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Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:57 am
SDC wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:37 am
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:47 am I am trying to look into it.
Please do. There are thousands of suttas and many different themes all directed towards freedom from suffering. Your position so far would call many consistencies into question.
Thank you. I suffer quite a lot in my life and it isn't always for me the primary goal to get out of the suffering. My primary goal is to Love others as much as I possibly can, and this has put me through a lot of suffering at times, when taking on others' karma when I had no negative karma of my own.
Fair enough. Everyone is free to have their own views, though I'm sure you know that most traditions within the Theravada school don't share this view.
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by Mahabrahma »

SDC wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:23 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:57 am
SDC wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:37 am

Please do. There are thousands of suttas and many different themes all directed towards freedom from suffering. Your position so far would call many consistencies into question.
Thank you. I suffer quite a lot in my life and it isn't always for me the primary goal to get out of the suffering. My primary goal is to Love others as much as I possibly can, and this has put me through a lot of suffering at times, when taking on others' karma when I had no negative karma of my own.
Fair enough. Everyone is free to have their own views, though I'm sure you know that most traditions within the Theravada school don't share this view.
Theravada Buddhists are just as compassionate and caring as Mahayana Buddhists, it's not like Buddha's roots weren't based in altruism. But I fully understand what you mean, and it's okay. There are no ways people can be Buddhists without doing immense good for others, good is rooted in every Buddhist thought, as Buddha has planted those seeds. It's extremely important to get oneself out of suffering, and I don't think people should separate the Buddhist schools as much as they do. But though they do, there always needs to be a common understanding, because the truth is the one that came from Guatama Buddha, and Buddhism is One.
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SDC
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

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Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:54 pm Theravada Buddhists are just as compassionate and caring as Mahayana Buddhists, it's not like Buddha's roots weren't based in altruism. But I fully understand what you mean, and it's okay. There are no ways people can be Buddhists without doing immense good for others, good is rooted in every Buddhist thought, as Buddha has planted those seeds. It's extremely important to get oneself out of suffering, and I don't think people should separate the Buddhist schools as much as they do. But though they do, there always needs to be a common understanding, because the truth is the one that came from Guatama Buddha, and Buddhism is One.
A very nice sentiment. :smile:
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by confusedlayman »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:01 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:40 am the main reason for xx is the good feeling we get..

that good feeling arise only when semen passes in penis tube...

if semen is not moving (semen retentive) then there wont be feeling.. then whats the point of having xx

what it has to do with buddhist practice?
The main reason for sex is for adults to form long lasting Spiritual connection through sacred marriage and procreate and have children. It's about Love. Those that misuse sex in lustful ways are hurting themselves and others, and that is what the Buddha preached against.

relationship love is lust filled.. it is not equal to love of parents to child or brahma to other creatures
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by Mahabrahma »

Romantic true Love between Husband and Wife that is pure and Spiritual has no lust in it, only Love. There is romantic attraction but do not confuse Love with lust or Loving attraction with lust when it comes to romantic relationships, as lust is sinful.

Buddha preached a lot against lust, and romantic Love is not lust:
(1) “Brahmin, one excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, intends for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he experiences mental suffering and dejection. But when lust is abandoned, he does not intend for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he does not experience mental suffering and dejection. One excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, engages in misconduct by body, speech, and mind. But when lust is abandoned, he does not engage in misconduct by body, speech, and mind. One excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, does not understand as it really is his own good, the good of others, or the good of both. But when lust is abandoned, he understands as it really is his own good, the good of others, and the good of both. It is in this way, brahmin, that the Dhamma is directly visible … to be personally experienced by the wise.
-AN 3.54
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by rightviewftw »

squizzlebizzle wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 5:48 am And, as far as I could tell in my best investigation of the topic, you can be sexually active and gain stream entry.
There are some problems here.

What do we mean by 'sexually active', what is the expression and frequency of this activity? Is there moderation and what exactly is the stream-entry that is being attained?

Pacittiya 68 (a rule for monks)
Not to affirm that things such as sexual pleasures are not an obstacle to the development of ariyā stage or to jhāna realisations, nor to rebirth in the deva world, when the Buddha explains that these things are precisely an obstacle to those, and not to maintain erroneous views.

There is no mechanism known to me by which i can say that one must go so and so long without sex, to moderate it this much and how semen retention affects this.

As to what constitutes a stream-entry, that depends on whether you include faith & dhamma-followers.

In general if you want to attain some sort of profound meditative realizations then it's best to dedicate yourself fully to the training and that for as long as it takes.
“It is better for you to have put your manhood in the mouth of a venomous snake or a pit of burning charcoal than a woman.”
Based on this passage it would seem that putting it into a woman is a bad idea to begin with.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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