"Killing" the unworthy aspirants

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binocular
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"Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by binocular »

So how does this work out in the practice of Dhamma propagation:

"And if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, what do you do?"

"If a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Buddhist communities are sometimes visited by people who aren't worthy to be talked to. What does it look like, in practice, in terms of Dhamma propagation, to "kill" those people?
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samseva
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by samseva »

You're intentionally being disruptive/polemical... and partially quoting a sutta, out of its context.

Here is the second part of the sutta:
[...] [In reference to Kesi killing a horse if it doesn't want to be trained]

"But it's not proper for our Blessed One to take life! And yet the Blessed One just said, 'I kill him, Kesi.'"

"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life.
But if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata doesn't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing."
(Essentially... that missing out on an opportunity to be instructed by the Buddha himself is the same/worse than death/being killed.)
Last edited by samseva on Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:38 pm So how does this work out in the practice of Dhamma propagation:

"And if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, what do you do?"

"If a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Buddhist communities are sometimes visited by people who aren't worthy to be talked to. What does it look like, in practice, in terms of Dhamma propagation, to "kill" those people?
That's not really a relevant question, as nobody has ever suggested that "Buddhist communities" should kill, either in fact or metaphorically. That's something that the Buddha said, as a striking figure of speech, in a specific context.

If you treated Matthew 5.29 in a similar way, you wouldn't be binocular any more.
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samseva
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by samseva »

In fact, not killing (even animals/insects!) is the most important teaching/precept in the Buddhist teachings and practice...
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samseva
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by samseva »

binocular wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:38 pm What does it look like, in practice, in terms of Dhamma propagation, to "kill" those people?
You just stop talking to them/admonishing them... (like the sutta says)
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by binocular »

I mean, what do Buddhist communities do with people who "just don't seem to get it", but who nevertheless visit those Buddhist communities?

On Buddhist forums, such people are sometimes called trolls and banned. What about IRL groups?
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binocular
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:17 pmIf you treated Matthew 5.29 in a similar way, you wouldn't be binocular any more.
How is that relevant? It only makes sense that communities get rid of the misfits, and the communities certainly don't experience this is as giving up something valuable.
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confusedlayman
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by confusedlayman »

this thread is not fit to be answered by me as it is only partial sutta and out of context
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Sam Vara
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:15 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:17 pmIf you treated Matthew 5.29 in a similar way, you wouldn't be binocular any more.
How is that relevant? It only makes sense that communities get rid of the misfits, and the communities certainly don't experience this is as giving up something valuable.
It is relevant because it is an extravagant figure of speech, not to be taken literally.
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Sam Vara
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:13 pm I mean, what do Buddhist communities do with people who "just don't seem to get it", but who nevertheless visit those Buddhist communities?

On Buddhist forums, such people are sometimes called trolls and banned. What about IRL groups?
Online, I've only ever known people get called trolls for persistent trolling, and banned for flagrant breaches of ToS. But my experience is only of DW. Could you give examples of "IRL groups"? I've known the local monastery call the police when crimes were committed, but there is a sense in which we all "just don't get it". Lack of understanding is tolerated - why would it not be?
binocular
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:33 pmLack of understanding is tolerated - why would it not be?
Blimey, I didn't get that impression.
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by binocular »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:20 pmthis thread is not fit to be answered by me as it is only partial sutta and out of context
Notice the " " around the word killing.
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Sam Vara
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:43 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:33 pmLack of understanding is tolerated - why would it not be?
Blimey, I didn't get that impression.
I guess it depends on the group, but in the groups I have known (recently, these all seem to be on Zoom or Skype!) people have always been extremely tolerant. Nobody is required to understand anything - except perhaps a few behavioural ground-rules. Perhaps people also tend to self-deselect if they feel things are not going to work out.
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by Dhammanando »

binocular wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:38 pmBuddhist communities are sometimes visited by people who aren't worthy to be talked to. What does it look like, in practice, in terms of Dhamma propagation, to "kill" those people?
The sutta is a description, not a prescription. It's not giving directions as to what Buddhist communities should do, but rather describing what the Buddha and "wise fellow brahmacarīs" (viññū sabrahmacarī) do do. And since viññū sabrahmacarī refers to a monk's fellow monks, the sutta has to do with a monastic community's in-house treatment of monastics who prove unteachable. It has nothing to do with their treatment of lay visitors to their monastery.
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tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


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It turns out otherwise.
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Re: "Killing" the unworthy aspirants

Post by Coëmgenu »

binocular wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:38 pm So how does this work out in the practice of Dhamma propagation:

"And if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, what do you do?"

"If a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Buddhist communities are sometimes visited by people who aren't worthy to be talked to. What does it look like, in practice, in terms of Dhamma propagation, to "kill" those people?
The problem is when those with brutal Dunning-Krüger take it upon themselves to similarly kill others they argue with, as several I'm sure have done to you.

Leaving aside the comments about Dunning and his wicked friend Krüger, in practice, here, it looks like when Ceisiwr told Pascal2 that he isn't communicating with Pascal2 when he responds to him, and instead addesses the larger community only when quoting him. It looks like when Ven Pesala "killed" retrofuturist in the monastics and social engagement thread.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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