Stream enterers and sexual desire

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dunner079
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:45 pm

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by dunner079 »

I'm puzzled, because this doesn't seem anything like the description of nimitta from "Stage Six:Experiencing the Beautiful Nimitta" in Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond" (see in the excerpt from the book at the link) which, after "one lets go of the body, thought and the five senses" appears to be like a light. It doesn't say anything about it having been born from the "lust, hate and delusion" which you mentioned in your post.

I never said anything about being born form lust, hate, or delusion, I said I still have these fetters.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books11/Ajah ... ers1-5.pdf
[/quote]

Peter Harvey in "Signless" Meditations in Pali Buddhism gives a good overview on the variety of meanings of "nimitta":
Peter Harvey wrote:V. The Meaning of Nimitta
Having mapped out the range of states known as "animitta,"
we can now investigate the nature and range of "nimittas" before
going on to examine the method of practice that leads beyond
them, and the nature of the animitta states to which such practices
lead.
While nimitta has been translated as "sign" so far, we can
see its range of meaning, in general usage, as being:
i) A deliberately made sign, or "hint," as when the Buddha
made a broad nimitta about the possibility of his living on for
the rest of the aeon.27
ii) A natural sign or indication, not deliberately made as a sign.
At S. V. 150, for example, in not noting what his master says
he likes, and reaches out for, etc., an inexperienced cook is
said not to take proper note of his master's nimitta. One who
reads the mind of another, without going off what anyone
says, and without using the power of meditation for direct
thought-reading, is said to do so by means of a nimitta, i.e., a
behavioural sign.28 Earthquakes are said to be the nimittas,
or signs, of the four main events in a buddha's life,29 while
ageing, sickness, death, and an ascetic are the four nimittas,
or "indications" of the nature of life, leading to a bodhisatta's
SO
renunciation,
iii) A specific type of natural sign—a sign of what is to come, a
portent. Thus, "diviners of nimittas" examined the 32 marks
on the body of the newborn bodhisatta*1 taking three of
them as the nimitta, or "sign" of longevity.32 Similarly, we
read that "that is a prior sign (pubbe nimittam) of the manifestation
of Brahma, when the light arises, and the glory
shines."33
iv) A marker, as when hillsides and rocks, etc. are taken as nimittas
showing the boundaries of a monastic residence.34
v) A (male or female) sexual organ (Vin.III.28, and 21) or sexual
characteristic (Dhs.§633,644).
vi) Characteristic, as in bdlanimittdni, "the characteristics of a
fool" (M.III. 163), and as implied in "But you, householder,
have all the characteristic marks and signs (dkdrd te lingd te
nimitta) of a householder,"3""1 and in the phrase "face-ra'raitta"
which is what is said to be seen to be seen and pondered
in a mirror (M.I. 100).
vii) General appearance, or gestalt, as in the common passage,
"Having seen a visible shape with the eye, he does not seize
on the general appearance (nimittaggdhi), he does not seize
on the detail (anubyanjanaggdhi) . . . ."36
viii) Ground, reason or cause, as when the Buddha says that he
does not behold the nimitta on which anyone could reprove
him for having dsavas not yet destroyed.37 Similarly, at
M.III. 157, a monk says that he does not know nimitta, the
reason, why, in his attempts to see gods, their light and visible
form come to disappear.38
ix) Aim, as when an archer "takes a straight aim {nimittam ujum
Aflroft')w(Miln.418).
x) The object of concentration in samatha meditation: this is
well attested in the commentarial literature, e.g., at
Vism. 125—6: in concentrating on an external device, such as
a clay disc, the device itself is the "preliminary" nimitta', by
concentrating on it, the meditator comes to see a mental
image of it, even with closed eyes—this is the "learning"
nimitta: by his concentrating on this, it appears in a purified,
abstracted form, the "counterpart" nimitta. In the latter two
cases, the nimitta can be seen as a "reflex image," which is
both a "sign" that the meditation is proceeding well and the
"target" of concentration (cf. sense ix, above). Such
samddhi-nimittas are also alluded to in the suttas. The "pre
liminary" sign is alluded to at Ps.II.38, which says, "Here,
someone gives attention to the nimitta of blue-black, internally
in himself," the commentary explaining this to mean a
person's hair. A reflex-image nimitta is referred to, e.g., at
A.IV.418, on a monk who is unskilled at entering on and
dwelling in the firstjhdna:" he does not pursue, nor develop,
nor cultivate that nimitta."39
We see then that, in general usage, nimitta means a sign or
indication, which may be a hint, or an indication of contemporary
or future thoughts, desires, events or features of life, or a
(boundary) marker, sexual or other characteristic, general appearance,
ground or reason, aim, or a meditation object that is
either physical or a mental reflex image. It is a delimited object
of attention, that may, or should be taken as indicating something
beyond itself or the general features of that to which it
belongs.
[/quote]

I'm not sure about all this I'm afraid, I'm not a practicing Buddhist or indepth with Buddhism or terms, I'm sorry.
dunner079
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:45 pm

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by dunner079 »

dunner079 wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:47 am I'm puzzled, because this doesn't seem anything like the description of nimitta from "Stage Six:Experiencing the Beautiful Nimitta" in Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond" (see in the excerpt from the book at the link) which, after "one lets go of the body, thought and the five senses" appears to be like a light. It doesn't say anything about it having been born from the "lust, hate and delusion" which you mentioned in your post.

I never said anything about being born form lust, hate, or delusion, I said I still have these fetters. If Ajahn Brahms is who you trust and who you believe you must go with your instinct.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books11/Ajah ... ers1-5.pdf
Peter Harvey in "Signless" Meditations in Pali Buddhism gives a good overview on the variety of meanings of "nimitta":
Peter Harvey wrote:V. The Meaning of Nimitta
Having mapped out the range of states known as "animitta,"
we can now investigate the nature and range of "nimittas" before
going on to examine the method of practice that leads beyond
them, and the nature of the animitta states to which such practices
lead.
While nimitta has been translated as "sign" so far, we can
see its range of meaning, in general usage, as being:
i) A deliberately made sign, or "hint," as when the Buddha
made a broad nimitta about the possibility of his living on for
the rest of the aeon.27
ii) A natural sign or indication, not deliberately made as a sign.
At S. V. 150, for example, in not noting what his master says
he likes, and reaches out for, etc., an inexperienced cook is
said not to take proper note of his master's nimitta. One who
reads the mind of another, without going off what anyone
says, and without using the power of meditation for direct
thought-reading, is said to do so by means of a nimitta, i.e., a
behavioural sign.28 Earthquakes are said to be the nimittas,
or signs, of the four main events in a buddha's life,29 while
ageing, sickness, death, and an ascetic are the four nimittas,
or "indications" of the nature of life, leading to a bodhisatta's
SO
renunciation,
iii) A specific type of natural sign—a sign of what is to come, a
portent. Thus, "diviners of nimittas" examined the 32 marks
on the body of the newborn bodhisatta*1 taking three of
them as the nimitta, or "sign" of longevity.32 Similarly, we
read that "that is a prior sign (pubbe nimittam) of the manifestation
of Brahma, when the light arises, and the glory
shines."33
iv) A marker, as when hillsides and rocks, etc. are taken as nimittas
showing the boundaries of a monastic residence.34
v) A (male or female) sexual organ (Vin.III.28, and 21) or sexual
characteristic (Dhs.§633,644).
vi) Characteristic, as in bdlanimittdni, "the characteristics of a
fool" (M.III. 163), and as implied in "But you, householder,
have all the characteristic marks and signs (dkdrd te lingd te
nimitta) of a householder,"3""1 and in the phrase "face-ra'raitta"
which is what is said to be seen to be seen and pondered
in a mirror (M.I. 100).
vii) General appearance, or gestalt, as in the common passage,
"Having seen a visible shape with the eye, he does not seize
on the general appearance (nimittaggdhi), he does not seize
on the detail (anubyanjanaggdhi) . . . ."36
viii) Ground, reason or cause, as when the Buddha says that he
does not behold the nimitta on which anyone could reprove
him for having dsavas not yet destroyed.37 Similarly, at
M.III. 157, a monk says that he does not know nimitta, the
reason, why, in his attempts to see gods, their light and visible
form come to disappear.38
ix) Aim, as when an archer "takes a straight aim {nimittam ujum
Aflroft')w(Miln.418).
x) The object of concentration in samatha meditation: this is
well attested in the commentarial literature, e.g., at
Vism. 125—6: in concentrating on an external device, such as
a clay disc, the device itself is the "preliminary" nimitta', by
concentrating on it, the meditator comes to see a mental
image of it, even with closed eyes—this is the "learning"
nimitta: by his concentrating on this, it appears in a purified,
abstracted form, the "counterpart" nimitta. In the latter two
cases, the nimitta can be seen as a "reflex image," which is
both a "sign" that the meditation is proceeding well and the
"target" of concentration (cf. sense ix, above). Such
samddhi-nimittas are also alluded to in the suttas. The "pre
liminary" sign is alluded to at Ps.II.38, which says, "Here,
someone gives attention to the nimitta of blue-black, internally
in himself," the commentary explaining this to mean a
person's hair. A reflex-image nimitta is referred to, e.g., at
A.IV.418, on a monk who is unskilled at entering on and
dwelling in the firstjhdna:" he does not pursue, nor develop,
nor cultivate that nimitta."39
We see then that, in general usage, nimitta means a sign or
indication, which may be a hint, or an indication of contemporary
or future thoughts, desires, events or features of life, or a
(boundary) marker, sexual or other characteristic, general appearance,
ground or reason, aim, or a meditation object that is
either physical or a mental reflex image. It is a delimited object
of attention, that may, or should be taken as indicating something
beyond itself or the general features of that to which it
belongs.
[/quote]

I'm not sure about all this I'm afraid, I'm not a practicing Buddhist or indepth with Buddhism or terms, I'm sorry.
[/quote]
dunner079
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:45 pm

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by dunner079 »

Ye, of course, it is a typical development, years get on and you get less energised for sex. But having a Satori for me personally did nothing to inhibit sexual desire at all. It has some good points to it the years go by but you're still in the trenches duking it out with yourself after experiencing it.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Now I don't know what you are trying to say. You say:
Ye, of course, it is a typical development
Its a typical development as yo get older for sex drive to deplete.
But just before you said:
Having attained Sotapanna when I was 17 I can only say desire became more aggressive and intense for many years.

Sexual desire was one of the main senses that was significantly heightened along with anger and other obsessions. I felt a little cheated by the whole experience................
It seems that you said that attaining sotapanna significantlly heightened sexual desire.....but now you are saying that it was a typical development. So are you saying that it is a typical development or are you saying that it came about because of having attained sotapanna?
chownah
[/quote]

When I had the experience my ego enforced itself more, being I became more distorted, more desire, more passion, more burdens.
dunner079
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:45 pm

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by dunner079 »

I'm going to close off on this. I think it's making people confused and conflicts too much with the scripture and what the leaders say and if it doesn't follow the textbooks then it can't be a true glimpse of the void. I'm not a practicing Buddhist nor do I follow Buddhist doctrine even though I know what the Buddha said was true and he was correct without a doubt. I was just asking on the forum if anyone had a similar experience and if they came to a final conclusion thereafter at some stage.

I'll just keep searching myself. Thanks for the help and comments. I hope you find it in this life.
2600htz
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by 2600htz »

Hello:

I would say Sotapanna is more about "straighting" the personality, and this can mean different things depending on the person and their gathi.

For someone with a hateful personality, attaining sotapanna might bring more joy, so he becomes a little more prone to enjoyments (food, sex, life in general). For someone with a lustful personality, attaining sotapanna might bring more equanimity, so he is not so commited to abusing pleasures.

Sakadagamis are the ones who really start losing sexual desire.

Regards.
maniture_85
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by maniture_85 »

SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:23 am
Tom wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:00 am Does attaining stream entry decrease sexual desire?
No. Attenuation occurs with Once-Returner, not before. However the sotapanna does not conceptually self-identify with sexual desire anymore, his self does not conceptually depend on the satisfaction of sexual desire anymore. Thus a sotapanna will neither seek sexual pleasure nor sexual relief anymore and will not entertain thoughts about sexual pleasures, fantasies and the like.
Interesting answer, but i don't agree with the last sentence.
Sexual desire can still arise even when one is alone because of past sankaras. It is the same for other defilements which have been lowered but still not fully controlled by the Sotapanna.
form
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by form »

If they have no identity view, what kind of sexual desire will they have?
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Mahabrahma »

Lifetime celebates who tend to do it for Spiritual reasons and successfully tend to be the most Spiritual People on the planet. If course this is a difficult task and not for the commonfolk, even Buddha was not a lifetime celebate. If one limits intercourse to only sacred marriage and Love, however, they will be successful as a Layfollower of the Buddha.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by confusedlayman »

MIf everything is impersonal process due to cause and condition then if this view is maintained all time then he is arhant
. If this view is known but not maintanied he might be sota and capable of doing deep tendency like xx and ill will sometimes
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:27 pm MIf everything is impersonal process ... capable of doing deep tendency like xx and ill will sometimes
The above sounds merely intellectual, which is why u have not been able to end defilements. It seems the sexual act can only occur when there is self-view. Therefore, the sexual act is not impersonal.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Mahabrahma
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Mahabrahma »

Buddhism doesn't deny that we are persons, the Buddha is seen as the greatest person in fact. Anatta doesn't erase individuality, it strengthens it in an Enlightened Way.
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cappuccino
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:40 pm Anatta doesn't erase individuality, it strengthens it in an Enlightened Way.
almost everything you say is off
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Mahabrahma »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:50 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:40 pm Anatta doesn't erase individuality, it strengthens it in an Enlightened Way.
almost everything you say is off
You will never erase who you are, Superman.
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cappuccino
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:55 pm You will never erase who you are, Superman.
Superman is a comic book
Inedible
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Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Inedible »

It is strange to me that sexual pleasure is so much more difficult than others. Before covid you could go into a crowded restaurant and watch people eating at all the tables. No big deal. But just imagine if they were all having sex instead of eating. It is more like being an addict and watching someone using your favorite substance.
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