Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
tamdrin
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Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by tamdrin »

What are the benefits of rebirth in Tushita heaven? Is it possible to practice there? What kind of pleasures are experienced. I understand a fair amount of Theravada monks seek such a rebirth. Some in Mahayana too.
Inedible
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by Inedible »

Pure Land Buddhism had two goals. Rebirth in a place conducive to becoming a Buddha is the long term goal, for after this life. The short term goal is to learn to see where you are in this life as a Pure Land. I haven't ever heard of a Theravada equivalent.

Have you been watching the tv show "The Good Place"? It says that it has become impossible to be good enough to earn a place in The Good Place after death because life has become too complicated. Everything has unintended negative consequences. Being in a Pure Land where you live Dhamma your entire life and avoid temptation would go a long way toward finding Nibbana.
tamdrin
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by tamdrin »

Yes, thanks, but I'm not talking about Pure Land Buddhism. I'm just talking about a Theravada follower seeking the next life in Tushita heaven. Or anyone else.


In Mahayana there is a Tushita deva realm and there is a Tushita Pure Land, "the inner court" where Maitreya lives.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by Mr. Seek »

You could look up Ajahn Punnadhammo's book on Buddhist Cosmology. It gives a detailed, doctrinal overview on each of the heavens, heavenly beings, etc. Google it, you can download it for free from his website.

By and large though, I'd advise you to aim higher than Tusita.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by Mahabrahma »

Become a follower of Maitreya there. Do you think He will not lead you to the Highest Wisdom? If that is where you want to be reborn, that is where you will go directly. You can even visit there now. It has to be what you want, but Buddhism doesn't withhold it's Peaceful comings and goings from those who are Peaceful.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by confusedlayman »

If u dont want to practice now whats the sureity that u will practice in heaven?

Evwn if buddha wants u to practice and if u dont want u wont

Rebirth in tusita needs genority, 5 precept, and basic things like good laylife
dont think
tamdrin
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by tamdrin »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:41 am If u dont want to practice now whats the sureity that u will practice in heaven?

Evwn if buddha wants u to practice and if u dont want u wont

Rebirth in tusita needs genority, 5 precept, and basic things like good laylife
I do practice now.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.
chownah
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by chownah »

tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 am What are the benefits of rebirth in Tushita heaven? Is it possible to practice there? What kind of pleasures are experienced. I understand a fair amount of Theravada monks seek such a rebirth. Some in Mahayana too.
How would anyone here know the answers to your questions? If someone did answer your questions would you believe them? How would you know if they are right or not?

In tusita heaven you get a pair of wings and a halo....you can practice but only the harp and choral music....all the drugs like cocaine and heroin are there but you don't get addicted or have any adverse effects so you just kick back and enjoy.

Like the lady sings in Eraserhead:
In Heaven
Everything is fine
In Heaven
Everything is fine
In Heaven
Everything is fine
You got your good thing
And I've got mine
chownah
tamdrin
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by tamdrin »

chownah wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:16 pm
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 am What are the benefits of rebirth in Tushita heaven? Is it possible to practice there? What kind of pleasures are experienced. I understand a fair amount of Theravada monks seek such a rebirth. Some in Mahayana too.
How would anyone here know the answers to your questions? If someone did answer your questions would you believe them? How would you know if they are right or not?

In tusita heaven you get a pair of wings and a halo....you can practice but only the harp and choral music....all the drugs like cocaine and heroin are there but you don't get addicted or have any adverse effects so you just kick back and enjoy.

Like the lady sings in Eraserhead:
In Heaven
Everything is fine
In Heaven
Everything is fine
In Heaven
Everything is fine
You got your good thing
And I've got mine
chownah
I thought some may have some textual citations. I will check the website mentioned above.
The2nd
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by The2nd »

tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 am What are the benefits of rebirth in Tushita heaven? Is it possible to practice there? What kind of pleasures are experienced. I understand a fair amount of Theravada monks seek such a rebirth. Some in Mahayana too.
Majjhima 120:

".....Furthermore, take a mendicant who has faith, ethics, learning, generosity, and wisdom. And they’ve heard: ‘The Gods of the Thirty-Three … the Gods of Yama … the Joyful Gods … the Gods Who Love to Create … the Gods Who Control the Creations of Others are long-lived, beautiful, and very happy.’ They think: ‘If only, when my body breaks up, after death, I would be reborn in the company of the Gods Who Control the Creations of Others!’ They settle on that thought, stabilize it and develop it. Those choices and aspirations of theirs, developed and cultivated like this, lead to rebirth there. This is the path and the practice that leads to rebirth there......

......Furthermore, take a mendicant who has faith, ethics, learning, generosity, and wisdom. They think: ‘If only I might realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life, and live having realized it with my own insight due to the ending of defilements.’ They realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And they live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements. And, mendicants, that mendicant is not reborn anywhere.”
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Dhammanando
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by Dhammanando »

tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 am What are the benefits of rebirth in Tushita heaven?
You'll be taller than a Yāma deva, but shorter than a Nimmānaratī deva. Your life-span will be longer than a Yāma deva's, but shorter than a Nimmānaratī deva's. The apsaras will be sexier than in the Yāma heaven, but not as sexy as the ones in Nimmānaratī. Etc., etc.
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 amIs it possible to practice there?
It would be if you were reborn there after attaining stream-entry or higher in the human realm (like Anāthapiṇḍika and Isidatta) or if a Buddha were to visit the heaven during your stay. Pace Mahabrahma, there's no support in Theravāda sources for the idea that Metteyya teaches anybody there; being merely an ignorant bodhisatta, Metteyya is still a puthujjana and therefore not yet in a position to teach an ariya-making Dhamma.
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 amWhat kind of pleasures are experienced.
A plenitude of five-sense-door consciousnesses with ati-iṭṭhārammaṇas ("highly desirable objects") as their object.
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 amI understand a fair amount of Theravada monks seek such a rebirth. Some in Mahayana too.
If you ever meet one you should tell the feckless wastrel that he's taken a wrong course. Cite the Methuna and Nanda Suttas if he doesn't believe you:
“Here, brahmin, some ascetic or brahmin, claiming to be perfectly celibate, does not engage in sexual intercourse with women. He does not consent to being rubbed, massaged, bathed, and kneaded by them. He does not joke with women, play with them, and amuse himself with them. He does not gaze and stare straight into women’s eyes. He does not listen to the voices of women behind a wall or through a rampart as they laugh, talk, sing, or weep. He does not recollect laughing, talking, and playing with women in the past. He does not look at a householder or a householder’s son enjoying himself furnished and endowed with the five objects of sensual pleasure. Yet he lives the spiritual life aspiring for rebirth in a certain order of devas, thinking: ‘By this virtuous behavior, observance, austerity, or spiritual life I will be a deva or one in the retinue of the devas.’ He relishes this, desires it, and finds satisfaction in it. This, too, is a breach, flaw, blemish, and blotch of the celibate life. He is called one who lives an impure celibate life, one who is fettered by the bond of sexuality. He is not freed from birth, from old age and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish; he is not freed from suffering, I say.”
(Methuna Sutta, AN. 7.47)

Then venerable Nanda’s monk-friends accosted venerable Nanda with words about a hireling, with words about a lackey, saying: “It seems venerable Nanda is a hireling, it seems venerable Nanda is a lackey, he is living the spiritual life for the sake of celestial nymphs, the Blessed One, it seems, is his surety for gaining five hundred celestial dove-footed nymphs!”
(Ud. 3.2)
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
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cappuccino
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by cappuccino »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:29 pm
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 am What are the benefits of rebirth in Tushita heaven?
You'll be taller than a Yāma deva, but shorter than a Nimmānaratī deva. Your life-span will be longer than a Yāma deva's, but shorter than a Nimmānaratī deva's. The apsaras will be sexier than in the Yāma heaven, but not as sexy as the ones in Nimmānaratī. Etc., etc.
you sound skeptical


though it makes logical sense


in terms of karma
tamdrin
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by tamdrin »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:29 pm
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 am What are the benefits of rebirth in Tushita heaven?
You'll be taller than a Yāma deva, but shorter than a Nimmānaratī deva. Your life-span will be longer than a Yāma deva's, but shorter than a Nimmānaratī deva's. The apsaras will be sexier than in the Yāma heaven, but not as sexy as the ones in Nimmānaratī. Etc., etc.
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 amIs it possible to practice there?
It would be if you were reborn there after attaining stream-entry or higher in the human realm (like Anāthapiṇḍika and Isidatta) or if a Buddha were to visit the heaven during your stay. Pace Mahabrahma, there's no support in Theravāda sources for the idea that Metteyya teaches anybody there; being merely an ignorant bodhisatta, Metteyya is still a puthujjana and therefore not yet in a position to teach an ariya-making Dhamma.
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 amWhat kind of pleasures are experienced.
A plenitude of five-sense-door consciousnesses with ati-iṭṭhārammaṇas ("highly desirable objects") as their object.
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:19 amI understand a fair amount of Theravada monks seek such a rebirth. Some in Mahayana too.
If you ever meet one you should tell the feckless wastrel that he's taken a wrong course. Cite the Methuna and Nanda Suttas if he doesn't believe you:
“Here, brahmin, some ascetic or brahmin, claiming to be perfectly celibate, does not engage in sexual intercourse with women. He does not consent to being rubbed, massaged, bathed, and kneaded by them. He does not joke with women, play with them, and amuse himself with them. He does not gaze and stare straight into women’s eyes. He does not listen to the voices of women behind a wall or through a rampart as they laugh, talk, sing, or weep. He does not recollect laughing, talking, and playing with women in the past. He does not look at a householder or a householder’s son enjoying himself furnished and endowed with the five objects of sensual pleasure. Yet he lives the spiritual life aspiring for rebirth in a certain order of devas, thinking: ‘By this virtuous behavior, observance, austerity, or spiritual life I will be a deva or one in the retinue of the devas.’ He relishes this, desires it, and finds satisfaction in it. This, too, is a breach, flaw, blemish, and blotch of the celibate life. He is called one who lives an impure celibate life, one who is fettered by the bond of sexuality. He is not freed from birth, from old age and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish; he is not freed from suffering, I say.”
(Methuna Sutta, AN. 7.47)

Then venerable Nanda’s monk-friends accosted venerable Nanda with words about a hireling, with words about a lackey, saying: “It seems venerable Nanda is a hireling, it seems venerable Nanda is a lackey, he is living the spiritual life for the sake of celestial nymphs, the Blessed One, it seems, is his surety for gaining five hundred celestial dove-footed nymphs!”
(Ud. 3.2)
That's interesting Bhante. Thanks for your input. Gave me a good chuckle too!
tamdrin
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by tamdrin »

Bhante, It seems you are of the opinion that practitioners (lay or ordained) should only seek human rebirth until stream entry is achieved?
chownah
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Re: Seeking rebirth in Tushita heaven

Post by chownah »

tamdrin wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:37 am Bhante, It seems you are of the opinion that practitioners (lay or ordained) should only seek human rebirth until stream entry is achieved?
(ASIDE: Will the bhante tell tamdrin to seek rebirth of any kind?)
chownah
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