Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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pegembara
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by pegembara »

form wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:53 am
My modern interpretation will be one that is compatible with modern psychology. Ignorance and volition (are impulses deeper in the psy), these are feedback from internal psy into consciousness, the inputs from external senses and external environments are "labelled" as name and form. Together and intertwining they continuously interact to form an existence until the body fails.
Do you consider nama-rupa as present in dream states? Granted the inputs may have become internalised in the process.
In dreamless sleep, do you consider namarupa-consciousness to be present?
In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media...

Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by SteRo »

"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by form »

pegembara wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:38 am
form wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:53 am
My modern interpretation will be one that is compatible with modern psychology. Ignorance and volition (are impulses deeper in the psy), these are feedback from internal psy into consciousness, the inputs from external senses and external environments are "labelled" as name and form. Together and intertwining they continuously interact to form an existence until the body fails.
Do you consider nama-rupa as present in dream states? Granted the inputs may have become internalised in the process.
In dreamless sleep, do you consider namarupa-consciousness to be present?
In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media...

Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I believe only only two states are dreamless. Nibanna (permanent) or certain jhanas (temporarily halted). Is there an interpretation of the term Buddha as the awaken one?

Likely name and form will still be present since I am using DO mechanisms and its rules will apply. Six sense doors includes the mind. So when there is only input from the mind which are thoughts/fantasies(conscious or unconscious) will also become "labelled" or "recognised". "Labelled" and "recognition" are linked to perception (according to the suttas when there is feeling, there is perception). Hence the five aggregates are everywhere in DO ever-dynamic mechanism. Tightly clinge to as I &/or mine. Ignorance and impulses served as filters, predisposition and distortion with regards to the ever arising name and form to cause the person to passionately attached to existence.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

It can also be seen as Subject and Object: :smile:
  • And why this flow of mind and matter? What causes it to occur? The future Buddha understood that the process arises because of consciousness, the act of cognition which separates the world into the knower and the known, subject and object, ...
    The art of living by Goenkaji
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:46 pm It can also be seen as Subject and Object: :smile:
  • And why this flow of mind and matter? What causes it to occur? The future Buddha understood that the process arises because of consciousness, the act of cognition which separates the world into the knower and the known, subject and object, ...
    The art of living by Goenkaji
Consciousness as subject and name-and-form as object.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:54 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:46 pm It can also be seen as Subject and Object: :smile:
  • And why this flow of mind and matter? What causes it to occur? The future Buddha understood that the process arises because of consciousness, the act of cognition which separates the world into the knower and the known, subject and object, ...
    The art of living by Goenkaji
Consciousness as subject and name-and-form as object.



Very interesting view, thanks. That may be a possibility. Here is a broader context:
  • Then why do the six sensory bases exist? Because they are essential aspects of the flow of mind and matter. And why this flow of mind and matter? What causes it to occur? The future Buddha understood that the process arises because of consciousness, the act of cognition which separates the world into the knower and the known, subject and object, “I” and “other.” From this separation results identity, “birth.” Every moment consciousness arises and assumes a specific mental and physical form. In the next moment, again, consciousness takes a slightly different form. Throughout one’s existence, consciousness flows and changes.
    The art of living by Goenkaji

However, here is very explicit presentation of nama-rupa as Subject & Object:
  • To the extent which (paccaya) the mind has not comprehended (avijja) Truth, habitual drives (sankhara) manifest and condition (paccaya) awareness into a discriminative mode (vinnana) that operates in terms of (paccaya) subject and object (nama-rupa) held (paccaya) to exist on either side of the six sense-doors (salayatana).
    Ven. Sucitto Bhikkhu - Amaravati (from introduction to the book: The way it is by Ajahn Sumedho)

:heart:
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

  • And, simply ... Body & Mind.
Nāmarūpa – Body and Mind. by Ajahn Amaro
https://www.amaravati.org/audio/namarupa-body-mind/

:heart:
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

If we look at DN15:
“It was said: ‘With mentality-materiality as condition there is contact.’ How that is so, Ānanda, should be understood in this way: If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the mental body were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the material body?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the material body were all absent, would impingement-contact be discerned in the mental body?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the mental body and the material body were all absent, would either designation-contact or impingement-contact be discerned?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of mentality-materiality were all absent, would contact be discerned?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“Therefore, Ānanda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for contact, namely, mentality-materiality.
https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/bodhi

It is saying that Nāma = vedana, sanna etc whilst rūpa = the 6 sense bases, since it makes sense to say of the sense bases there is "resistance/impingement contact" but little sense to say that a sense object is impingement/resistance contact. From this it means mind and body.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti

“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
coconut
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:52 pm
It is saying that Nāma = vedana, sanna etc whilst rūpa = the 6 sense bases, since it makes sense to say of the sense bases there is "resistance/impingement contact" but little sense to say that a sense object is impingement/resistance contact. From this it means mind and body.
There's also a sutta where the Buddha says that those reborn in the formless plane only have 4 aggregates not 5 (no rupa). We know that formless = no body = no rupa.

Nama means mind, and Nama is where the problem is, that's why the Buddha told the Jain ascetics that Mind is the most important thing, and not Body, as the Jains believe that Body is the most important thing which is why they stand in one posture all day thinking it purifies them.

Within Nama, the most important thing is Sankhara, which is intention for the 6 senses as well as the 3 types of activities. Within the 3 types of activities, mental activity (feelings and perception) is the most important, as it's within perception where ignorance lies and manifests into intentions, thoughts, feelings and bodily actions.

One attains jhanas by stilling these activities and sees how the 3 poisons manifest into the 5 hindrances, which begins with identity view which feeds the poison of delusion and results in clinging and becoming.
Last edited by coconut on Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:59 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:54 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:46 pm It can also be seen as Subject and Object: :smile:
    Consciousness as subject and name-and-form as object.



    Very interesting view, thanks. That may be a possibility. Here is a broader context:
    • Then why do the six sensory bases exist? Because they are essential aspects of the flow of mind and matter. And why this flow of mind and matter? What causes it to occur? The future Buddha understood that the process arises because of consciousness, the act of cognition which separates the world into the knower and the known, subject and object, “I” and “other.” From this separation results identity, “birth.” Every moment consciousness arises and assumes a specific mental and physical form. In the next moment, again, consciousness takes a slightly different form. Throughout one’s existence, consciousness flows and changes.
      The art of living by Goenkaji

    However, here is very explicit presentation of nama-rupa as Subject & Object:
    • To the extent which (paccaya) the mind has not comprehended (avijja) Truth, habitual drives (sankhara) manifest and condition (paccaya) awareness into a discriminative mode (vinnana) that operates in terms of (paccaya) subject and object (nama-rupa) held (paccaya) to exist on either side of the six sense-doors (salayatana).
      Ven. Sucitto Bhikkhu - Amaravati (from introduction to the book: The way it is by Ajahn Sumedho)

    :heart:
    I didn't know Ajahn Sucitto's position on namarupa, thank you.

    Bhikkhu Anālayo, from 'Satipaṭṭhāna - The Direct Path to Realization':
    Consciousness depends on the various features of experience supplied by name-and-form (nãmarûpa), just as name-and-form in turn depend on consciousness as their point of reference. This conditional interrelationship creates the world of experience, with consciousness being
    aware of phenomena that are being modified and presented to it by way of name-and-form.
    Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'The Magic of the Mind':
    Consciousness as the subject always finds itself confronted with 'name-and-form' as the object.
    "If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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    Ceisiwr
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    Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

    Post by Ceisiwr »

    coconut wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:02 pm
    Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:52 pm
    It is saying that Nāma = vedana, sanna etc whilst rūpa = the 6 sense bases, since it makes sense to say of the sense bases there is "resistance/impingement contact" but little sense to say that a sense object is impingement/resistance contact. From this it means mind and body.
    There's also a sutta where the Buddha says that those reborn in the formless plane only have 4 aggregates not 5 (no rupa). We know that formless = no body = no rupa.

    Nama means mind, and Nama is where the problem is, that's why the Buddha told the Jain ascetics that Mind is the most important thing, and not Body, as the Jains believe that Body is the most important thing which is why they stand in one posture all day thinking it purifies them.

    Within Nama, the most important thing is Sankhara, which is intention for the 6 senses as well as the 3 types of activities. Within the 3 types of activities, mental activity (feelings and perception) is the most important, as it's within perception where ignorance lies and manifests into intentions, thoughts, feelings and bodily actions.

    One attains jhanas by stilling these activities and sees how the 3 poisons manifest into the 5 hindrances, which begins with identity view which feeds the poison of delusion and results in clinging and becoming.
    Yes. Notice what is missing here. The sutta does not say:

    "If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the form-group were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the name-group?"

    If it had said that then there could be no designation-contact, no nāma, without rūpa. The fact that this sutta omits it shows that we can have designation contact, that is nāma, without rūpa. This is what allows for the immaterial realms.
    Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti

    “One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

    Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
    coconut
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    Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

    Post by coconut »

    AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:03 pm

    Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'The Magic of the Mind':
    Consciousness as the subject always finds itself confronted with 'name-and-form' as the object.

    That would be wrong since those in the formless plane have consciousness that is not confronted with form as an object.
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    Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

    Post by AlexBrains92 »

    coconut wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:15 pm
    AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:03 pm

    Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'The Magic of the Mind':
    Consciousness as the subject always finds itself confronted with 'name-and-form' as the object.

    That would be wrong since those in the formless plane have consciousness that is not confronted with form as an object.
    'No rupa' implies 'no namarupa'? I don't think so. The suttas say that consciousness needs namarupa to arise, and vice versa.
    "If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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    Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

    Post by AlexBrains92 »

    Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'Nibbāna Sermon 1':
    It is obvious that nāma means 'name', and in the suttas also, nāma, when used by itself, means 'name'. However when we come to the commentaries we find some kind of hesitation to recognize this obvious meaning. Even in the present context, the commentary, Paramatthajotikā, explains the word 'name' so as to mean 'bending'. It says that all immaterial states are called nāma, in the sense that they bend towards their respective objects and also because the mind has the nature of inclination: Ārammaṇābhimukhaṃ namanato, cittassa ca natihetuto sabbampi arūpaṃ 'nāman'ti vuccati.[6]

    And this is the standard definition of nāma in Abhidhamma compendiums and commentaries. The idea of bending towards an object is brought in to explain the word nāma. It may be that they thought it too simple an interpretation to explain nāma with reference to 'name', particularly because it is a term that has to do with deep insight. However as far as the teachings in the suttas are concerned, nāma still has a great depth even when it is understood in the sense of 'name'.

    Nāmaṃ sabbaṃ anvabhavi,

    nāmā bhiyyo na vijjati,

    nāmassa ekadhammassa,

    sabbeva vasamanvagū.[7]

    "Name has conquered everything,

    There is nothing greater than name,

    All have gone under the sway

    Of this one thing called name."

    Also there is another verse of the same type, but unfortunately its original meaning is often ignored by the present day commentators:

    Akkheyyasaññino sattā,

    akkheyyasmiṃ patiṭṭhitā,

    akkheyyaṃ apariññāya,

    yogam āyanti maccuno.[8]

    "Beings are conscious of what can be named,

    They are established on the nameable,

    By not comprehending the nameable things,

    They come under the yoke of death."

    All this shows that the word nāma has a deep significance even when it is taken in the sense of 'name'.

    But now let us see whether there is something wrong in rendering nāma by 'name' in the case of the term nāma-rūpa. To begin with, let us turn to the definition of nāma-rūpa as given by the Venerable Sāriputta in the Sammādiṭṭhisutta of the Majjhima Nikāya.

    Vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro - idaṃ vuccatāvuso, nāmaṃ; cattāri ca mahābhūtāni, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṃ upādāyarūpaṃ - idaṃ vuccatāvuso, rūpaṃ. Iti idañca nāmaṃ idañca rūpaṃ - idam vuccatāvuso nāma-rūpaṃ.[9] "Feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention - this, friend, is called 'name'. The four great primaries and form dependent on the four great primaries - this, friend, is called 'form'. So this is 'name' and this is 'form' - this, friend, is called 'name-and-form'."

    Well, this seems lucid enough as a definition but let us see, whether there is any justification for regarding feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention as 'name'. Suppose there is a little child, a toddler, who is still unable to speak or understand language. Someone gives him a rubber ball and the child has seen it for the first time. If the child is told that it is a rubber ball, he might not understand it. How does he get to know that object? He smells it, feels it, and tries to eat it, and finally rolls it on the floor. At last he understands that it is a plaything. Now the child has recognised the rubber ball not by the name that the world has given it, but by those factors included under 'name' in nāma-rūpa, namely feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention.

    This shows that the definition of nāma in nāma-rūpa takes us back to the most fundamental notion of 'name', to something like its prototype. The world gives a name to an object for purposes of easy communication. When it gets the sanction of others, it becomes a convention.

    While commenting on the verse just quoted, the commentator also brings in a bright idea. As an illustration of the sweeping power of name, he points out that if any tree happens to have no name attached to it by the world, it would at least be known as the 'nameless tree'.[10] Now as for the child, even such a usage is not possible. So it gets to know an object by the aforesaid method. And the factors involved there, are the most elementary constituents of name.

    Now it is this elementary name-and-form world that a meditator also has to understand, however much he may be conversant with the conventional world. But if a meditator wants to understand this name-and-form world, he has to come back to the state of a child, at least from one point of view. Of course in this case the equanimity should be accompanied by knowledge and not by ignorance. And that is why a meditator makes use of mindfulness and full awareness, satisampajañña, in his attempt to understand name-and-form.

    Even though he is able to recognize objects by their conventional names, for the purpose of comprehending name-and-form, a meditator makes use of those factors that are included under 'name': feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention. All these have a specific value to each individual and that is why the Dhamma has to be understood each one by himself - paccattaṃ veditabbo. This Dhamma has to be realized by oneself. One has to understand one's own world of name-and-form by oneself. No one else can do it for him. Nor can it be defined or denoted by technical terms.

    Now it is in this world of name-and-form that suffering is found. According to the Buddha, suffering is not out there in the conventional world of worldly philosophers. It is to be found in this very name-and-form world. So the ultimate aim of a meditator is to cut off the craving in this name-and-form. As it is said: acchecchi taṇhaṃ idha nāmarūpe.[11]

    Now if we are to bring in a simile to clarify this point, the Buddha is called the incomparable surgeon, sallakatto anuttaro.[12] Also he is sometimes called taṇhāsallassa hantāraṃ, one who removes the dart of craving.[13] So the Buddha is the incomparable surgeon who pulls out the poison-tipped arrow of craving.

    We may say therefore that, according to the Dhamma, nāma-rūpa, or name-and-form, is like the wound in which the arrow is embedded. When one is wounded by a poison-tipped arrow, the bandage has to be put, not on the archer or on his bow-string, but on the wound itself. First of all the wound has to be well located and cleaned up. Similarly, the comprehension of name-and-form is the preliminary step in the treatment of the wound caused by the poison-tipped arrow of craving.

    And it is for that purpose that a meditator has to pay special attention to those basic components of 'name' - feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention - however much he may be proficient in words found in worldly usage. It may even appear as a process of unlearning down to childlike simplicity. But of course, the equanimity implied there, is not based on ignorance but on knowledge.

    We find ourselves in a similar situation with regard to the significance of rūpa in nāma-rūpa. Here too we have something deep, but many take nāma-rūpa to mean 'mind and matter'. Like materialists, they think there is a contrast between mind and matter. But according to the Dhamma there is no such rigid distinction. It is a pair that is interrelated and taken together it forms an important link in the chain of paṭicca samuppāda.

    Rūpa exists in relation to 'name' and that is to say that form is known with the help of 'name'. As we saw above, that child got a first-hand knowledge of the rubber ball with the help of contact, feeling, perception, intention and attention. Now in the definition of 'form' as cattāri ca mahābhūtāni, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṃ upādāya rūpaṃ the four great primaries are mentioned because they constitute the most primary notion of 'form'. Just as much as feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention represent the most primary notion of 'name', conventionally so called, even so the four great primaries form the basis for the primary notion of 'form', as the world understands it.

    It is not an easy matter to recognize these primaries. They are evasive like ghosts. But out of their interplay we get the perception of form, rūpasaññā. In fact what is called rūpa in this context is rūpasaññā. It is with reference to the behaviour of the four great elements that the world builds up its concept of form. Its perception, recognition and designation of form is in terms of that behaviour. And that behaviour can be known with the help of those members representing name.

    The earth element is recognized through the qualities of hardness and softness, the water element through the qualities of cohesiveness and dissolution, the fire element through hotness and coolness, and the wind element through motion and inflation. In this way one gets acquainted with the nature of the four great primaries. And the perception of form, rūpasaññā, that one has at the back of one's mind, is the net result of that acquaintance. So this is nāma-rūpa. This is one's world. The relationship between rūpa and rūpasaññā will be clear from the following verse:

    Yattha nāmañca rūpañca,

    asesaṃ uparujjhati,

    paṭighaṃ rūpasaññā ca,

    etthesā chijjate jaṭā.

    This is a verse found in the Jaṭāsutta of the Saṃyutta Nikāya.[14] In that sutta we find a deity putting a riddle before the Buddha for solution:

    Anto jaṭā bahi jaṭā,

    jaṭāya jaṭitā pajā,

    taṃ taṃ Gotama pucchāmi,

    ko imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭaṃ.

    "There is a tangle within, and a tangle without,

    The world is entangled with a tangle.

    About that, oh Gotama, I ask you,

    Who can disentangle this tangle?"

    The Buddha answers the riddle in three verses, the first of which is fairly well known, because it happens to be the opening verse of the Visuddhimagga:

    Sīle patiṭṭhāya naro sapañño,

    cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ,

    ātāpī nipako bhikkhu,

    so imaṃ vijaṭaye jataṃ.

    This means that a wise monk, established in virtue, developing concentration and wisdom, being ardent and prudent, is able to disentangle this tangle. Now this is the second verse:

    Yesaṃ rāgo ca doso ca,

    avijjā ca virājitā,

    khīṇāsavā arahanto,

    tesaṃ vijaṭitā jaṭā.

    "In whom lust, hate

    And ignorance have faded away,

    Those influx-free Arahants,

    It is in them that the tangle is disentangled."

    It is the third verse that is relevant to our topic.

    Yattha nāmañca rūpañca,

    asesaṃ uparujjhati,

    paṭighaṃ rūpasaññā ca,

    etthesā chijjate jaṭā.

    "Where name and form

    As well as resistance and the perception of form

    Are completely cut off,

    It is there that the tangle gets snapped."

    The reference here is to Nibbāna. It is there that the tangle is disentangled.

    The coupling of name-and-form with paṭigha and rūpasaññā in this context, is significant. Here paṭigha does not mean 'repugnance', but 'resistance'. It is the resistance which comes as a reaction to inert matter. For instance, when one knocks against something in passing, one turns back to recognize it. Sense reaction is something like that.

    The Buddha has said that the worldling is blind until at least the Dhamma-eye arises in him. So the blind worldling recognizes an object by the very resistance he experiences in knocking against that object.

    Paṭigha and rūpasaññā form a pair. Paṭigha is that experience of resistance which comes by the knocking against an object, and rūpasaññā, as perception of form, is the resulting recognition of that object. The perception is in terms of what is hard, soft, hot or cold. Out of such perceptions common to the blind worldlings, arises the conventional reality, the basis of which is the world.

    Knowledge and understanding are very often associated with words and concepts, so much so that if one knows the name of a thing, one is supposed to know it. Because of this misconception the world is in a tangle. Names and concepts, particularly the nouns, perpetuate the ignorance in the world. Therefore insight is the only path of release. And that is why a meditator practically comes down to the level of a child in order to understand name and form. He may even have to pretend to be a patient in slowing down his movements for the sake of developing mindfulness and full awareness.

    So we see that there is something really deep in nāma-rūpa, even if we render it as 'name-and-form'. There is an implicit connection with 'name' as conventionally so called, but unfortunately this connection is ignored in the commentaries, when they bring in the idea of 'bending' to explain the word 'name'. So we need not hesitate to render nāma-rūpa by 'name-and-form'. Simple as it may appear, it goes deeper than the worldly concepts of name and form.

    Now if we are to summarise all what we have said in this connection, we may say: 'name' in 'name-and-form' is a formal name. It is an apparent name. 'Form' in 'name-and-form' is a nominal form. It is a form only in name.
    "If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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    Ceisiwr
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    Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

    Post by Ceisiwr »

    AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:26 pm
    coconut wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:15 pm
    AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:03 pm

    Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'The Magic of the Mind':

    That would be wrong since those in the formless plane have consciousness that is not confronted with form as an object.
    'No rupa' implies 'no namarupa'? I don't think so. The suttas say that consciousness needs namarupa to arise, and vice versa.
    There is no rupa in the immaterial realms.
    Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti

    “One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

    Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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