It's not 'rupa' as intended in 'namarupa'.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:32 pmThere is no rupa in the immaterial realms.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:26 pm'No rupa' implies 'no namarupa'? I don't think so. The suttas say that consciousness needs namarupa to arise, and vice versa.
Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
- AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
Rupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived form them. These do not exist in the immaterial realms. There is no namarupa there, only consciousness, nama and concept.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:34 pmIt's not 'rupa' as intended in 'namarupa'.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:32 pmThere is no rupa in the immaterial realms.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:26 pm
'No rupa' implies 'no namarupa'? I don't think so. The suttas say that consciousness needs namarupa to arise, and vice versa.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'Nibbāna Sermon 1':Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:37 pmRupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived form them. These do not exist in the immaterial realms. There is no namarupa there, only consciousness, nama and concept.
'Form' in 'name-and-form' is a nominal form. It is a form only in name.
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
He goes on to say that form = the 4 great elements in namarupa. These do not exist in the immaterial realms.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:39 pmBhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'Nibbāna Sermon 1':'Form' in 'name-and-form' is a nominal form. It is a form only in name.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- AlexBrains92
- Posts: 1211
- Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
The 4 great elements... only in name (in namarupa).Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:41 pmHe goes on to say that form = the 4 great elements in namarupa. These do not exist in the immaterial realms.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:39 pmBhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'Nibbāna Sermon 1':'Form' in 'name-and-form' is a nominal form. It is a form only in name.
However, tell me, how can there be consciousness without namarupa?
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
Regardless of if they mean literal matter (not my position) or mere sense data/phenomena (my position and Ven. Ñāṇananda's) it stills stands that in the immaterial realms rupa, however you want to define it be it matter or the mere phenomenal experience of "hardness" and resistance etc, does not occur.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:44 pmThe 4 great elements... only in name (in namarupa).Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:41 pmHe goes on to say that form = the 4 great elements in namarupa. These do not exist in the immaterial realms.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:39 pm
Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'Nibbāna Sermon 1':
However, tell me, how can there be consciousness without namarupa?
There is consciousness, nama and the concept of infinite space.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
https://suttacentral.net/sn40.5/en/sujato“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- AlexBrains92
- Posts: 1211
- Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
No consciousness, here.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pmhttps://suttacentral.net/sn40.5/en/sujato“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
If there were no consciousness then it would be nirodha-samāpatti. Consciousness is still active in the immaterial realms.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:00 pmNo consciousness, here.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pmhttps://suttacentral.net/sn40.5/en/sujato“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
Because consciousness is cognising vedana, sanna, cetana, paññatti etc. All that is missing is rupa.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:00 pmNo consciousness, here.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pmhttps://suttacentral.net/sn40.5/en/sujato“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- AlexBrains92
- Posts: 1211
- Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
Sorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:02 pmIf there were no consciousness then it would be nirodha-samāpatti. Consciousness is still active in the immaterial realms.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:00 pmNo consciousness, here.
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
If there is no consciousness in the immaterial realms then there is no difference between any of the arupa jhanas and nirodha-samāpatti. Only nirodha-samāpatti is without consciousness. Your objections are little more than eel-wriggling. I just told you that consciousness is there because it has nama and concept as its object of cognition. The problem for you is in explaining the immaterial realms and in explaining the difference between them and nirodha-samāpatti.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pmSorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:02 pmIf there were no consciousness then it would be nirodha-samāpatti. Consciousness is still active in the immaterial realms.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:00 pm
No consciousness, here.
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
This is sutta based.For the suttas it's a requirement.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- AlexBrains92
- Posts: 1211
- Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
No way. I've already corrected myself, I wasn't meaning that there's no consciousness in immaterial realm.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:15 pmIf there is no consciousness in the immaterial realms then there is no difference between any of the arupa jhana and nirodha-samāpatti. Only nirodha-samāpatti is without consciousness. Your objections are little more than eel-wriggling. I just told you that consciousness is there because it has nama and concept as its object of cognition. The problem for you is in explaining the immaterial realms and in explaining the difference between them and nirodha-samāpatti.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pmSorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
This is sutta based.For the suttas it's a requirement.
The problem for you is in explaining how there can be consciousness without namarupa, but just with nama.
Last edited by AlexBrains92 on Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
You seem to be riddled with wrong views. I recommend you study the suttas rather than second hand sources.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pmSorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:02 pmIf there were no consciousness then it would be nirodha-samāpatti. Consciousness is still active in the immaterial realms.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:00 pm
No consciousness, here.
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
There is consciousness in the formless planes. Consciousness doesn't need FORM to sustain itself, consciousness only needs 3 things to sustain itself
1) Intention
2) Underlying Tendencies
3) Planning
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.38/en/bodhi“Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of future renewed existence. When there is the production of future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
“If, bhikkhus, one does not intend, and one does not plan, but one still has a tendency towards something, this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis, there is a support for the establishing of consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
The plane of "neither perception nor non-perception" is a plane without intention, but beings are still reborn there because they have underlying tendencies
Take the case of the reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions are effective. Those sentient beings pass away from that realm due to both their own and others’ intentions. But sir, in the case of the reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective, what kind of gods does this refer to?”
“Sāriputta, it refers to the gods reborn in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”
https://suttacentral.net/an4.171/en/sujato
Even though they have no intention and planning, they're still reborn because of underlying tendencies.
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
Because as the sutta I quoted shows, and DN15 supports, nama does not require rupa and consciousness can exist with just nama and concept as object.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:18 pmNo way. I've already corrected myself, I wasn't meaning that there's no consciousness in immaterial realm.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:15 pmIf there is no consciousness in the immaterial realms then there is no difference between any of the arupa jhana and nirodha-samāpatti. Only nirodha-samāpatti is without consciousness. Your objections are little more than eel-wriggling. I just told you that consciousness is there because it has nama and concept as its object of cognition. The problem for you is in explaining the immaterial realms and in explaining the difference between them and nirodha-samāpatti.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pm
Sorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
This is sutta based.For the suttas it's a requirement.
The problem for you is in explaining how there can be consciousness without namarupa, but just with nama.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”