II-i-1: Om. There was a man of the Garga family called Proud Balaki, who was a speaker. He said to Ajatasatru, the king of Benares, ‘I will tell you about Brahman’. Ajatasatru said, ‘For this proposal I give you a thousand (cows). People indeed rush saying "Janaka, Janaka". (I too have some of his qualities.)’
II-i-2: Gargya said, ‘That being who is in the sun, I meditate upon as Brahman’. Ajatasatru said, ‘Please don’t talk about him. I meditate upon him as all-surpassing, as the head of all beings and as resplendent. He who meditates upon him as such becomes all-surpassing, the head of all beings and resplendent.
II-i-3: Gargya said, ‘that being who is in the moon, I meditate upon as Brahman’. Ajatasatru said, "Please don’t talk about him. I meditate upon him as the great, white-robed, radiant Soma.’ He who meditates upon him as such has abundant Soma pressed in his principal and auxiliary sacrifices every day, and his food never gets short...
DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
Interestingly a section of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad mentions Ajatasatru, the same king we find in the suttas:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12879
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
a 2500-kilometre-thick layer of liquid iron and nickel
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
The Buddha was asked if he said that it is impossible to claim knowledge and vision that is all knowing and seeing. The Buddha said he never said that. He clarifies that he said that it is only impossible to know everything at once.rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:23 pm
"It is not possible that a brahman or contemplative would claim a knowledge and vision that is all-knowing and all-seeing without exception."' Those who say this: are they speaking in line with what the Blessed One has said? Are they not misrepresenting the Blessed One with what is unfactual? Are they answering in line with the Dhamma, so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma would have grounds for criticizing them?"
"Great king, those who say that are not speaking in line with what I have said, and are misrepresenting me with what is untrue and unfactual."
Only later in the sutta it's talked about knowing things at the same time.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12879
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
how did he know?cappuccino wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:24 pmliquid metal, is correctThis great earth, Ananda, is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. And when, Ananda, mighty atmospheric disturbances take place, the liquid is agitated. And with the agitation of the liquid, tremors of the earth arise. This is the first reason, the first cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.
a 2500-kilometre-thick layer of liquid iron and nickel
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- rhinoceroshorn
- Posts: 1177
- Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
I understand your point, santa, and no, I didn't understand what he said.santa100 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:07 pmIt's interesting that a seemingly scientific-leaning person like you already shut down your mind for abstract reasoning and further investigation. If there's anything we can learn out of science, its' that it constantly evolves and it never stops investigating ideas, no matter how crazy they seems to be at the moment. Just remember what you believe as absolute scientific truth as of now will likely be perceived as incorrect, dumb, and ignorant a few centuries later down the road, exactly as how you're seeing the beliefs of folks back then during the Buddha's time in 5 B.C! So with that said, it's totally possible that the Buddha was omniscient but simply used the existing common lingo at the time to convey the necessary infos to his listeners, with just enough scopes to help their practice. Afterall, He already made this point clear in the Simsapa Leaves Sutta. So, to demonstrate the point, see if you could understand what Prof. Brian Greene was saying in the video below using his normal non-dumbed-down lingo to explain General Relativity:rhinoceroshorn wrote:Please, don't try to convince me this is any right. It's obviously wrong.
I hold this same position about Aggañña sutta. I believe in Darwin's evolution but I don't know how it connects with the devolution of the sutta (Brahma god> ethereal deva> human> (?) animal (?)). It's a quite difficult topic.
Though, it's now quite obvious that earthquakes are a product of tectonic plates. It has nothing to do with wind or water. Period.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12879
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
there is more to it, I thinkrhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:42 pm Though, it's now quite obvious that earthquakes are a product of tectonic plates.
- rhinoceroshorn
- Posts: 1177
- Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
And is it possible to know everything at all? Why didn't the Buddha discover the beginning of Samsara?Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:32 pmThe Buddha was asked if he said that it is impossible to claim knowledge and vision that is all knowing and seeing. The Buddha said he never said that. He clarifies that he said that it is only impossible to know everything at once.rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:23 pm
"It is not possible that a brahman or contemplative would claim a knowledge and vision that is all-knowing and all-seeing without exception."' Those who say this: are they speaking in line with what the Blessed One has said? Are they not misrepresenting the Blessed One with what is unfactual? Are they answering in line with the Dhamma, so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma would have grounds for criticizing them?"
"Great king, those who say that are not speaking in line with what I have said, and are misrepresenting me with what is untrue and unfactual."
Only later in the sutta it's talked about knowing things at the same time.
What about the monks who committed suicide doing maranasati? He also didn't know that.
What about the pork meat who killed him?
Last edited by rhinoceroshorn on Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
He said it is without discoverable beginning.rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:46 pmAnd is it possible to know everything at all? Why didn't the Buddha discover the beginning of Samsara?Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:32 pmThe Buddha was asked if he said that it is impossible to claim knowledge and vision that is all knowing and seeing. The Buddha said he never said that. He clarifies that he said that it is only impossible to know everything at once.rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:23 pm
Only later in the sutta it's talked about knowing things at the same time.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- rhinoceroshorn
- Posts: 1177
- Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
In other words, it's not possible to know everything.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:47 pmHe said it is without discoverable beginning.rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:46 pmAnd is it possible to know everything at all? Why didn't the Buddha discover the beginning of Samsara?
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
- Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
- Posts: 2176
- Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:18 pmActually, there is no way to know the truth about this. Just collecting opinions.Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:36 pm Please may I ask:
- Do you think the answer to your question seriously worth knowing for you?
It'd be useful to know the range of knowledge of the Buddha. The most pragmatic position is assuming he was not omniscient. It doesn't create unnecessary implications and we can hypothesize he was maybe wrong, not blindly denying the possibility of mistakes.
Agreed much with that answer
Omniscient definitely have different definitions between Theravada and other traditions. For me Buddha is undoubtedly omniscient according to my definition that: he can know everything that he inclines to know, and it seems, to me, quite reasonable and logical and requires no strange superhuman abilities apart from purest of the pure minds.
Last edited by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta on Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
V. Nanananda
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
V. Buddhādasa
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
The Buddha knows everything about and within the All. That is the limit of what can be known. If there is anything outside of the All, we cannot know. In other words, the Buddha can know anything about what is possible to know. The interesting thing is that if he said he did know the beginning of samsara someone else could say he wasn't all knowing, since his knowledge would have a limitrhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:48 pmIn other words, it's not possible to know everything.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:47 pmHe said it is without discoverable beginning.rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:46 pm
And is it possible to know everything at all? Why didn't the Buddha discover the beginning of Samsara?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12879
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
perhaps you lack faithrhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:48 pm In other words, it's not possible to know everything.
thus are coming to a skeptical conclusion
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12879
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
Again, Ananda, when an ascetic or holy man of great power, one who has gained mastery of his mind, or a deity who is mighty and potent, develops intense concentration on the delimited aspect of the earth element, and to a boundless degree on the liquid element, he, too, causes the earth to tremble, quiver, and shake. This is the second reason, the second cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.
Maha-parinibbana Sutta
Maha-parinibbana Sutta
- rhinoceroshorn
- Posts: 1177
- Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
If all that there is is samsara and nibbana, there is nothing else to look for.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:50 pmThe Buddha knows everything about and within the All. That is the limit of what can be known. If there is anything outside of the All, we cannot know. In other words, the Buddha can know anything about what is possible to know. The interesting thing is that if he said he did know the beginning of samsara someone else could say he wasn't all knowing, since his knowledge would have a limitrhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:48 pmIn other words, it's not possible to know everything.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
- rhinoceroshorn
- Posts: 1177
- Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm
Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?
Faith by itself doesn't do anything to the practice. Faith is just a prerequisite to practice the path.cappuccino wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:52 pmperhaps you lack faithrhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:48 pm In other words, it's not possible to know everything.
thus are coming to a skeptical conclusion
which is wrong
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17