Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
pegembara
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by pegembara »

pvthanh98 wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:56 pm Dear everyone, I am not an native english speaker, so I may have some problems of explaining.
Please help me. I respect buddha very much and i have loved Buddhism since i was around ten years old. I often visit pagoda with all of my respect.
However, I do not know why it always appears unintentional bad thoughts about buddha in my mind when i pray or I look at buddha statue. I try to kill all of these bad thoughts but i can not. It appears in my mind every hour and everyday and makes me obsessed a lot. please give my some advice. Would I fall to the hell because of these bad thoughts, is it karma? I am so worried. I do really do not want to think of it. thank you all
Why not take these unintentional bad thoughts as objects of contemplation?
For example:

Are these thoughts permanent or impermanent?
Are they dukkha/suffering?
Do you have any control over them?
Are they fit to be taken as belonging to you?

Are you able to treat those thoughts as alien, a stranger, not belonging to you but because of certain causes and conditions come into existence?
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, how do you conceive it: is form permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent painful or pleasant?" — "Painful, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SteRo
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by SteRo »

pvthanh98 wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:56 pm Dear everyone, I am not an native english speaker, so I may have some problems of explaining.
Please help me. I respect buddha very much and i have loved Buddhism since i was around ten years old. I often visit pagoda with all of my respect.
However, I do not know why it always appears unintentional bad thoughts about buddha in my mind when i pray or I look at buddha statue. I try to kill all of these bad thoughts but i can not. It appears in my mind every hour and everyday and makes me obsessed a lot. please give my some advice. Would I fall to the hell because of these bad thoughts, is it karma? I am so worried. I do really do not want to think of it. thank you all

Don't beat yourself up for these thoughts. The more you struggle against them or fear them the more the obsession increases. It would be sufficient to just be mindful of thoughts without judging them and without appropriating them as "mine". Just "thoughts of aversion" or "thoughts of greed" or "happy thoughts" etc. and let them go.
However whether mindfulness or directing mind to other objects or suppression of thinking is used always the capacity to concentrate is required. So you might want to start with training concentration, not trying to attain jhanas but merely calm abiding through concentration and learning to put the mind on beneficial objects so that it stays on these objects. Once you can focus and fix the mind at will unwelcome thinking isn't an issue anymore. You focus, fix and relax and focus, fix and relax as deemed appropriate.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
pvthanh98
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by pvthanh98 »

SteRo wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:46 am
pvthanh98 wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:56 pm Dear everyone, I am not an native english speaker, so I may have some problems of explaining.
Please help me. I respect buddha very much and i have loved Buddhism since i was around ten years old. I often visit pagoda with all of my respect.
However, I do not know why it always appears unintentional bad thoughts about buddha in my mind when i pray or I look at buddha statue. I try to kill all of these bad thoughts but i can not. It appears in my mind every hour and everyday and makes me obsessed a lot. please give my some advice. Would I fall to the hell because of these bad thoughts, is it karma? I am so worried. I do really do not want to think of it. thank you all

Don't beat yourself up for these thoughts. The more you struggle against them or fear them the more the obsession increases. It would be sufficient to just be mindful of thoughts without judging them and without appropriating them as "mine". Just "thoughts of aversion" or "thoughts of greed" or "happy thoughts" etc. and let them go.
However whether mindfulness or directing mind to other objects or suppression of thinking is used always the capacity to concentrate is required. So you might want to start with training concentration, not trying to attain jhanas but merely calm abiding through concentration and learning to put the mind on beneficial objects so that it stays on these objects. Once you can focus and fix the mind at will unwelcome thinking isn't an issue anymore. You focus, fix and relax and focus, fix and relax as deemed appropriate.
Do I create big karma for this in case, it is unintentional or it is an obsess that I've got OCD (sick)? Thanks
SteRo
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by SteRo »

pvthanh98 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:58 am Do I create big karma for this in case, it is unintentional or it is an obsess that I've got OCD (sick)? Thanks

No. Negative karma depends on intentionally meditating bad thoughts.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
pvthanh98
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by pvthanh98 »

SteRo wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:02 pm
pvthanh98 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:58 am Do I create big karma for this in case, it is unintentional or it is an obsess that I've got OCD (sick)? Thanks

No. Negative karma depends on intentionally meditating bad thoughts.
Thank you
SteRo
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by SteRo »

Actually discerning bad thoughts as bad thoughts and intentionally do something against them is positive karma.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
Rag
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by Rag »

Very strange to see this thread just now, as I have been a sufferer of religious OCD for many years, since even before I became a Buddhist. And just recently I have been grappling very hard with this issue. It is an extremely disheartening condition that has left me frustrated with and perplexed by my mind.

It strikes me whenever I experience a strong desire to do something or for some event to come about. For example, perhaps I have some food in my refrigerator that I want to eat. I remember that I have that item in the fridge and I get excited to eat, but right then I have a thought of the form "may (insert renowned bikkhu here) die so that I may enjoy my food!" Such a thought causes panic and distress. I feel then that I cannot rightly take part in the food that I wanted to eat because I fear that by doing so I am complicit in the thought of ill-will that sprung up.

On the one hand, I want to just go ahead and do the activity that the thought centered on so as to not be dominated by these strange intrusive thoughts, but on the other hand, I cannot help but feel intense guilt and fear about the consequences of my action. This disorder has really made me think about the nature of intention. The thoughts are like a flash -- they happen so quickly that I cannot really take a close look at them. I feel in my heart that I would never truly wish death upon the person that is the subject of the thought, but then I wonder if perhaps I did wish death upon them for that split second that the thought occurred. After all, even people who commit murder may instantly regret their action but that does not undo the bad kamma. The distress just haunts me.

I try to take solace in the fact that the thoughts are a source of stress and worry. The thoughts target people that I really care about -- prominent bikkhus and family members -- and I would not be glad if those people passed away. I even fear the thoughts before they occur. Many times I can sense that one is bubbling up and I have an "oh no!" reaction which may manifest in physical tics such as shaking my head and shutting my eyes.

Even just now, as I have been composing this post my internet is down. I can sense that there is an intrusive thought bubbling up of the form "may so-and-so die so that my internet comes back online!" muscles tense up as I forcefully try to prevent this thought from occurring. I guess that is "crushing mind with mind". If the thought occurred and my internet so happened to go back online, I would feel distress about posting this because my internet might have come back due to the evil wish. This disorder is crippling.
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robertk
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by robertk »

Hi rag
This is simply nature, the way things are - anatta, not controllable.

Obviously you don’t wish the bhikkhu harm. People who really wish someone harm embrace the base thoughts on the topic, They really would enjoy if harm came to the object of their hate.

I heard a talk where a famous monk ( sumedho)said a woman came to see him who was distressed because she had a lovely new granddaughter who she loved so much. But one day a thought came , out of the blue , that she might want to hurt the girl.
Sumedho simply said “ and did you hurt her?”.

Of course she didn’t want to hurt her in the least and never would. So the woman got some understanding that it is what is underlying the thoughts that matters.

So in the way of Dhamma , attention turns to understanding what is reality and what is concept - there can be a clear distinction seen between thinking as a process and the concept . And much more.
Rag
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by Rag »

robertk wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:35 pm Hi rag
This is simply nature, the way things are - anatta, not controllable.

Obviously you don’t wish the bhikkhu harm. People who really wish someone harm embrace the base thoughts on the topic, They really would enjoy if harm came to the object of their hate.

I heard a talk where a famous monk ( sumedho)said a woman came to see him who was distressed because she had a lovely new granddaughter who she loved so much. But one day a thought came , out of the blue , that she might want to hurt the girl.
Sumedho simply said “ and did you hurt her?”.

Of course she didn’t want to hurt her in the least and never would. So the woman got some understanding that it is what is underlying the thoughts that matters.

So in the way of Dhamma , attention turns to understanding what is reality and what is concept - there can be a clear distinction seen between thinking as a process and the concept . And much more.
Thank you. I am very grateful for your reply!
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by salayatananirodha »

it happens to me too, i wouldn't sweat it. think about the praiseworthy qualities of the buddha, why one should revere him. i'm faithful to the dhamma and there wouldn't be dhamma widely available if it weren't for him. he's responsible for saving me from untold destruction, devastation, heartbreak and ruin. i have to do the work myself, but he revealed and made plain the method that is so hard to come by otherwise.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by salayatananirodha »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:57 pm It's kamma. Don't get sad for that. The most important thing is what you can do in the present with this old kamma.
My practical solutions: ignoring, thinking the opposite of the thought.
If you're talking about thoughts of ill-will, I recommend meditating on the brahmaviharas. Metta in particular. Metta is really effective against ill-will. Think about when you are with a headache and take a medicine. Metta is the medicine for ill-will.

Bhante Vimalaramsi is one the main proponents of metta of our time. He really emphasizes the importance of metta. It's the only meditation I saw him teach.
I recommend following his instructions. The idea of smiling in meditation may sound ridiculous at first but give it a chance and you'll know why it's important. Good luck.

have you seen the video he made about this sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
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zerotime
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by zerotime »

pvthanh98 wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:56 pm Dear everyone, I am not an native english speaker, so I may have some problems of explaining.
Please help me. I respect buddha very much and i have loved Buddhism since i was around ten years old. I often visit pagoda with all of my respect.
However, I do not know why it always appears unintentional bad thoughts about buddha in my mind when i pray or I look at buddha statue. I try to kill all of these bad thoughts but i can not. It appears in my mind every hour and everyday and makes me obsessed a lot. please give my some advice. Would I fall to the hell because of these bad thoughts, is it karma? I am so worried. I do really do not want to think of it. thank you all
try to avoid praying and reverences to Buddha statues. There is not need of that. Buddha never taught about statues and prayings
Many people use these things like a support to keep Dhamma and it works well to them. However, maybe you don't need it because some kamma. If statues become an interference with Dhamma then forget statues and keep Dhamma. Easy business.

If you don't need any support of that style then more space and less worries.

I believe no bad consequences if the rejection is because the statues and ritual instead to Buddha the Master. You should investigate this point until isolation of the cause. Just my view.
Ionbuddy
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by Ionbuddy »

Just me spitballing an idea here.

If this thought causes you a lot of distress, then perhaps it's better to put it on the back burner. Contemplation on consequences, real or imagined, while agitated won't bring any insight because the mind is not in a position to process any information correctly or wisely.

But then again, I still have doubts about other realms. So do with this comment as you will
I still have defilements.
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Samana_Johann
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Re: Unintentional bad thoughts about Buddha

Post by Samana_Johann »

Giving thoughts improper attentions, good householder, are there nourishments, and of cause thoughts do also not arise without intention. Not giving improper attention their denourisment.

And to comment certain asavas: "Sumedho simply said “ and did you hurt her?”."

Kamma follows three doors, not one or two, and intentions, thoughts, mind, is even the root.

"This is simply nature, the way things are - anatta, not controllable.", and then, after his session, he collected his belongings and went back home... good that the Buddha didn't taught the ways and Uposatha of the Jains, at least for those listen to him.

At least again practical, as thoughts are really not just thoughts... but causes:
..."Having done a mental action, you should reflect on it: 'This mental action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful mental action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful mental action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should feel distressed, ashamed, & disgusted with it. Feeling distressed, ashamed, & disgusted with it, you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful mental action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities. ... mn61
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