MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by Inedible »

After leaving jhana the hindrances remain suppressed for a time afterwards. The stronger the jhana the longer this effect lasts. The mind is still unusually concentrated and able to examine things clearly. Rather than just examining thoughts and emotions you can go back to the tendencies for them to arise. Intense experiences tend to leave more lasting impressions. Jhana is very good. Deeper jhana are better. Although I have read that if you have formless jhanas it is better to go to the fourth jhana before doing vipassana.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Inedible wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:33 am
Although I have read that if you have formless jhanas it is better to go to the fourth jhana before doing vipassana.
One thing. The suttas never call the formless attainments Jhanas. Only the 1st 4 attainments are Jhanas.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by Inedible »

Okay, so 5 through 8 and cessation are not jhana. So if you cycle through those experiences that could be part of why spending time in the 4th jhana would be useful. Then vipassana.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by BrokenBones »

Inedible wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:33 am After leaving jhana the hindrances remain suppressed for a time afterwards. The stronger the jhana the longer this effect lasts. The mind is still unusually concentrated and able to examine things clearly. Rather than just examining thoughts and emotions you can go back to the tendencies for them to arise. Intense experiences tend to leave more lasting impressions. Jhana is very good. Deeper jhana are better. Although I have read that if you have formless jhanas it is better to go to the fourth jhana before doing vipassana.
Is there any sutta reference to this sort of procedure? It seems like you're reflecting on past experiences with attachment. Surely an experience of jhana coupled with the ability to discern would be a more productive and immediate way to go. 'Immediate' as in happening in the here and now.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by Inedible »

Until I get my own jhana it is all theory. All I know comes from reading, listening, and thinking about how it all comes together. My attempts at meditation have been shallow. Once I finally get jhana things should really start clicking along.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by BrokenBones »

Inedible wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:29 am Until I get my own jhana it is all theory. All I know comes from reading, listening, and thinking about how it all comes together. My attempts at meditation have been shallow. Once I finally get jhana things should really start clicking along.
Gotcha... reading, listening and thinking sounds good to me and as far as 'concentration' goes... more is not necessarily better. Imagine fish and chips without salt :cry: now imagine it with just enough salt 😃... now imagine it with a cup of salt 🤮 🚑

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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by coconut »

Inedible wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:29 am Until I get my own jhana it is all theory. All I know comes from reading, listening, and thinking about how it all comes together. My attempts at meditation have been shallow. Once I finally get jhana things should really start clicking along.
When you do eventually attain jhana you will see that discernment doesn't dependent on thoughts and thoughts are rather a later byproduct of intention and attention. In short, one can discern and understand clearly what is happening and is able to make comparisons of states and discern them while they change, as they're unfolding in jhana.

There is no need to leave jhana, unless of course one must break seclusion.

Also look up the word measureless mind, which is the mind after jhana. Monks in the suttas setup a measureless mind after their morning meal. Basically one can maintain a hindrance free state even though seclusion has been broken. Ideally you would want a measureless mind 24/7, but that's not possible as it needs to be "refreshed" daily, as the Buddha seems to set one up every morning.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by Inedible »

Once I get there I'm going to forget all about how difficult it was and how long it took to get there. But I do still believe I can get there from here.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by coconut »

Also, if it was the case that there is no discernment in jhanas, then this wouldn't be possible
Then Brahma Sahampati, having known with his own mind the reflection in the Blessed One’s mind, just as quickly as a strong man might extend his drawn-in arm or draw in his extended arm, disappeared from the brahma world and reappeared before the Blessed One. He arranged his upper robe over one shoulder, raised his joined hands in reverential salutation towards the Blessed One, and said to him: “So it is, Blessed One! So it is, Fortunate One! Venerable sir, this is the one-way path for the purification of beings … all as above … that is, the four establishments of mindfulness.”
Brahma Sahampatti is from the pure abodes (4th jhana plane)
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by arkaprava »

There's a general perception, that blotting out senses,intensely focusing is the meaning of "concentration". This is a story by Thanissaro Bhikkhu where he mentions this :
The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time. After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation.
This is Anguttara 5.113, Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi :
Bhikkhus, possessing five qualities, a bhikkhu is incapable of entering and dwelling in right concentration. What five? Here, a bhikkhu cannot patiently endure forms, sounds, odors, tastes, and tactile objects. Possessing these five qualities, a bhikkhu is incapable of entering and dwelling in right concentration.

“Bhikkhus, possessing five [other] qualities, a bhikkhu is capable of entering and dwelling in right concentration. What five? [138] Here, a bhikkhu can patiently endure forms, sounds, odors, tastes, and tactile objects. Possessing these five qualities, a bhikkhu is capable of entering and dwelling in right concentration.”
Now if someone is going to say that here by right concentration, the Buddha means something else, I have nothing more to say.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by arkaprava »

Another problem that the proponents of shutting off senses misses that blotting out the senses doesn't get rid of the inherent problem .

This is from Anguttara 5.73 :
“Bhikkhus, without having abandoned six things, one is incapable of entering and dwelling in the first jhāna. What six? Sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, doubt; and one has not clearly seen with correct wisdom, as it really is, the danger in sensual pleasures. Without having abandoned these six things, one is incapable of entering and dwelling in the first jhāna.
Going by the same logic, getting a penectomy would solve our sexual problems.

There's an interesting story from the Vinaya :
A bhikkhu who cuts off his own genitalia incurs a thullaccaya.
Now at that time a certain bhikkhu, tormented by dissatisfaction,
cut off his own penis. They reported this matter to the Blessed One
968
(who said), “When one thing should have been cut off, that foolish
man cut off something else.”
The “thing that should have been cut off,” the Sub-commentary notes,
was the obsession for passion
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by confusedlayman »

arkaprava wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:51 pm Another problem that the proponents of shutting off senses misses that blotting out the senses doesn't get rid of the inherent problem .

This is from Anguttara 5.73 :
“Bhikkhus, without having abandoned six things, one is incapable of entering and dwelling in the first jhāna. What six? Sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, doubt; and one has not clearly seen with correct wisdom, as it really is, the danger in sensual pleasures. Without having abandoned these six things, one is incapable of entering and dwelling in the first jhāna.
Going by the same logic, getting a penectomy would solve our sexual problems.

There's an interesting story from the Vinaya :
A bhikkhu who cuts off his own genitalia incurs a thullaccaya.
Now at that time a certain bhikkhu, tormented by dissatisfaction,
cut off his own penis. They reported this matter to the Blessed One
968
(who said), “When one thing should have been cut off, that foolish
man cut off something else.”
The “thing that should have been cut off,” the Sub-commentary notes,
was the obsession for passion
thullaccaya means permanent suspension or just stern warning?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by coconut »

arkaprava wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:25 pm There's a general perception, that blotting out senses,intensely focusing is the meaning of "concentration". This is a story by Thanissaro Bhikkhu where he mentions this :
The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time. After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation.
This is Anguttara 5.113, Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi :
Bhikkhus, possessing five qualities, a bhikkhu is incapable of entering and dwelling in right concentration. What five? Here, a bhikkhu cannot patiently endure forms, sounds, odors, tastes, and tactile objects. Possessing these five qualities, a bhikkhu is incapable of entering and dwelling in right concentration.

“Bhikkhus, possessing five [other] qualities, a bhikkhu is capable of entering and dwelling in right concentration. What five? [138] Here, a bhikkhu can patiently endure forms, sounds, odors, tastes, and tactile objects. Possessing these five qualities, a bhikkhu is capable of entering and dwelling in right concentration.”
Now if someone is going to say that here by right concentration, the Buddha means something else, I have nothing more to say.
:goodpost:

That non-perception is a type of jhana though, but the wrong kind. It's called "(22) Unconscious beings (asaññasatta) Only body is present; no mind.", it's the 22nd plane, and is above third jhana and below fourth jhana.

This is what I call "brute forcing your way into jhana", which is possible but not sustainable in the long run as you will eventually run into other problems.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by arkaprava »

coconut wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:57 pm
arkaprava wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:25 pm There's a general perception, that blotting out senses,intensely focusing is the meaning of "concentration". This is a story by Thanissaro Bhikkhu where he mentions this :
The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time. After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation.
This is Anguttara 5.113, Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi :
Bhikkhus, possessing five qualities, a bhikkhu is incapable of entering and dwelling in right concentration. What five? Here, a bhikkhu cannot patiently endure forms, sounds, odors, tastes, and tactile objects. Possessing these five qualities, a bhikkhu is incapable of entering and dwelling in right concentration.

“Bhikkhus, possessing five [other] qualities, a bhikkhu is capable of entering and dwelling in right concentration. What five? [138] Here, a bhikkhu can patiently endure forms, sounds, odors, tastes, and tactile objects. Possessing these five qualities, a bhikkhu is capable of entering and dwelling in right concentration.”
Now if someone is going to say that here by right concentration, the Buddha means something else, I have nothing more to say.
:goodpost:

That non-perception is a type of jhana though, but the wrong kind. It's called "(22) Unconscious beings (asaññasatta) Only body is present; no mind.", it's the 22nd plane, and is above third jhana and below fourth jhana.

This is what I call "brute forcing your way into jhana", which is possible but not sustainable in the long run as you will eventually run into other problems.
Yes he called the non-breathing Jhana as well , “appāṇaka jhāna”.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by frank k »

It's laughable that anyone could seriously think kamehi is referring to objects rather than desire in the first jhana formula.
Even if we were to accept that interpretation of kamehi referring to objects,
there are lots of ways to be secluded from objects without having to enter vism. redefinition of jhana or jabrama "jhana".
For example, we could put Ajahn Brahm in a sensory deprivation tank, put that tank on a space ship, and send it off to mars. He would be secluded from sense objects, but he doesn't have to also be in a "heavy jhana frozen stupor" to be 'secluded'. He's already secluded from 5 objects, secluded from earth, and he can still think and ponder over his wrong views on jhana while he's in that tank. That would not impact his seclusion from objects.

I've just updated this comprehensive detailed study glossing very sutta, and several non EBT sources including Vism.
Read it, book mark it, and don't bring up the topic again unless you can actually produce something of value that hasn't already been discussed to death and definitively disproven.

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... mehi.html

And a new bit of info, from Chinese Agamas first jhana formula:
In the Chinese EBT Agamas, 'kāmehi" translated as 5kg, agreeing with Pali EBT
Dr. William Chu says:
Five strands of sensuality is almost invariably translated as wuyu (lit. "five desires"). In other words, the Chinese makes it clear that it is the "desire" that is renounced, and not the "sensual stimulation" (i.e. the sensory experience itself, as Sujato would have it) that is renounced.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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