The term "nibbānāya" ???

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DooDoot
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The term "nibbānāya" ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Pali gurus

I am struggling with the term "nibbānāya", as follows:
Because those discussions aren’t beneficial or relevant to the fundamentals of the spiritual life. They don’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment.

Nesā, bhikkhave, kathā atthasaṃhitā nādibrahmacariyakā na nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṃvattati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.9/en/sujato#1.4
“Reverend Kassapa, it’s said that without being keen and prudent you can’t achieve awakening, extinguishment, and the supreme sanctuary.

“vuccati hidaṃ, āvuso kassapa, anātāpī anottappī abhabbo sambodhāya abhabbo nibbānāya abhabbo anuttarassa yogakkhemassa adhigamāya;

https://suttacentral.net/sn16.2/en/sujato
Nibbānāya above appears to be "dative" (indicating "recipient") rather than genitive.

How can the above verse be translated more plainly so to understand the dative (or otherwise genitive) more clearly?

Thank you
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Re: The term "nibbānāya" ???

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A related question. I could not find the term "dukkhanirodhāya" anywhere. Whilst the term "dukkhanirodhāya" appears to not exist, surely it remains valid, similar to tanhānirodhāya. Thank you.

These questions are related to this topic: nirodha vs nibbana?
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sphairos
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Re: The term "nibbānāya" ???

Post by sphairos »

Dear DooDoot,

In the first passage "nibbānāya" is indeed a dative. Dative is usually explained with the help of the phrase "I give to [a word in dative]". So in the quoted Pāli text above it is "to the Nibbāna". Dative is usually used when we talk about a destination, a goal (see S. Collins "Pāli grammar"), like in the "First Sermon": "majjhimā paṭipadā... cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati" ("the middle practice/way, that leads to..."). The verb saṃvattati ("to lead (to)") requires a dative here, as what is implied is movement from the point A to the point B. So the translation of the passage is quite correct.

While in your second passage, "anātāpī anottappī abhabbo sambodhāya abhabbo nibbānāya", "sambodhāya" and "nibbānāya" are rare "possesive datives" (or, simply, genitives), i.e. "of...": anātāpī (Nom. "a not ardent one") + anottappī (Nom. "a reckless one") + abhabbo (adj. [are], "unable/impossible/uncapable") + (Gen. "of Enlightenment, of Nibbāna).

O. H. de A. Wijesekera understands it as the Dative of Suitability.
§108. The Dat. of Suitability.

The dat. is also found with verbs, nouns (including adjectives) and particles (originally adverbs or prepositions) having the sense of befitting, suiting and counterpoising (cp. SS §87). Such are the verbs kappati and pahoti (cp. Pāṇ. II.2.13 & 2.16), nouns like kālo, akālo, adjectives of the sense of paṭirūpa and prepositions like alaṃ.
...
e. With some adjectives denoting competency or possibility a similar dat. is found in the Nikāyas, used very much like the dat. (or even the gen.) in Skr. with words like paryāpta and [140] śakta (SS §85). e.g., bhabbo “possible, fit”;

bhabbo abhinibbidāya, bhabbo sambodhāya M I.104
“has the capacity for breaking away (from the world) and for enlightenment”;

bhabbo dukkhakkhayāya S III.27
“has the capacity for destroying ill”;

abhabbo puna virūḷhiyā M II.256
“impossible to grow again”;

abhabbo parihānāya A II.40
“unlikely to decrease”.

With these the infinitive is also found showing that it is an infinitival dat. of the type discussed above (vide P.T.S. Dict, s.v.)

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... .htm#toc19
Nirodha is surely synonymous with nibbānā, in the later Sarvāstivāda scholasticism the term pratisaṃkhyā-nirodha became the main term for nirvāṇa , instead of nirvāṇa. (see ven.Dhammajoti, Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma. 2009. p. 471).

Nirodha in the formulas such as yours is explained as: "not to the stoppage of non-being of passion etc." (Na nirodhāyāti na rāgādīnaṃ appavattinirodhāya, from the commentary to the line from the Anuttariyasutta of Aṅguttara, PTS III 325). "Dukkhanirodhāya" I don't find as well, but it is implied by the "taṇhānirodhāya", as taṇhā is many times explained to be dukkha.
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Re: The term "nibbānāya" ???

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sphairos wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 pm Dear DooDoot
Thank you for replying Sphairos
sphairos wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 pmIn the first passage "nibbānāya" is indeed a dative. Dative is usually explained with the help of the phrase "I give to [a word in dative]".
Yes.
sphairos wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 pmSo in the quoted Pāli text above it is "to the Nibbāna".
Such as saying "devotion to God".
sphairos wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 pmDative is usually used when we talk about a destination, a goal (see S. Collins "Pāli grammar"), like in the "First Sermon": "majjhimā paṭipadā... cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati" ("the middle practice/way, that leads to..."). The verb saṃvattati ("to lead (to)") requires a dative here, as what is implied is movement from the point A to the point B. So the translation of the passage is quite correct.
Thank you for your clear explanation. So the passage is:
majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati.

middle path of practice the tathagata awakened to; eye producing, knowledge producing; to peace, to direct knowledge, to awakening, to nibbana it leads (Doot)

the Tathagata has awakened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna. (Bodhi)

the Realized One woke up by understanding the middle way, which gives vision and knowledge, and leads to peace, direct knowledge, awakening, and extinguishment. (Sujato)
New question: why is tathagata instrumental, namely, tathāgatena? :shrug:
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sphairos
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Re: The term "nibbānāya" ???

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DooDoot wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:41 am
sphairos wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 pm Dear DooDoot
Thank you for replying Sphairos
sphairos wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 pmIn the first passage "nibbānāya" is indeed a dative. Dative is usually explained with the help of the phrase "I give to [a word in dative]".
Yes.
sphairos wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 pmSo in the quoted Pāli text above it is "to the Nibbāna".
Such as saying "devotion to God".
sphairos wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 pmDative is usually used when we talk about a destination, a goal (see S. Collins "Pāli grammar"), like in the "First Sermon": "majjhimā paṭipadā... cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati" ("the middle practice/way, that leads to..."). The verb saṃvattati ("to lead (to)") requires a dative here, as what is implied is movement from the point A to the point B. So the translation of the passage is quite correct.
Thank you for your clear explanation. So the passage is:
majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati.

middle path of practice the tathagata awakened to; eye producing, knowledge producing; to peace, to direct knowledge, to awakening, to nibbana it leads (Doot)

the Tathagata has awakened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna. (Bodhi)

the Realized One woke up by understanding the middle way, which gives vision and knowledge, and leads to peace, direct knowledge, awakening, and extinguishment. (Sujato)
New question: why is tathagata instrumental, namely, tathāgatena? :shrug:
Hello, DooDoot,

I am happy to be of help!

To answer your question: it is a usual way to denote the doer, the agent of action in the sentences with the past passive participles (p.p.p.) (abhisambuddhā), which sentences are prevalent in Sanskrit, Pāli and other Indo-Aryan languages.

(majjhimā paṭipadā, the middle way/practice) + (tathāgatena, by the Tathāgata) + (abhisambuddhā, [the middle way, which is] realized, known) + (cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī , [the middle way which is] the one creating/causing vision and knowledge) + (upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya, to the pacification, to the higher understanding, to the enlightenment, to the nibbāna) + (saṃvattati, leads) = any decent translation, like the one ven. Bodhi did.

Important thing: in Pāli the verbs bujjhati/sambujjhati have their main ancient meaning, i.e. to understand, to realize, to know, not "to awaken", which is largely incorrectly associated with the Indo-Aryan root budh.

PTS Dictionary:
sambujjhati
[saṃ+bujjhati] to understand, achieve, know DhsA 218; inf. sambuddhuṃ Sn 765 (v. l. sambuddhaṃ); Caus. sambodheti to teach, instruct J I.142. Cp. sammā°.

bujjhati
saccāni bujjhi he recognised the truths Vism 209.
Caus. II. bujjhāpeti to lead to knowledge or recognition
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Re: The term "nibbānāya" ???

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sphairos wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 pm While in your second passage, "anātāpī anottappī abhabbo sambodhāya abhabbo nibbānāya", "sambodhāya" and "nibbānāya" are rare "possesive datives" (or, simply, genitives), i.e. "of...": anātāpī (Nom. "a not ardent one") + anottappī (Nom. "a reckless one") + abhabbo (adj. [are], "unable/impossible/uncapable") + (Gen. "of Enlightenment, of Nibbāna).
Returning. Thank you for the above. I imagine the above passage says: "incapable of possessing/gaining/receiving Nibbana".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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