MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
arkaprava
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:13 pm

Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by arkaprava »

frank k wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:23 pm It's laughable that anyone could seriously think kamehi is referring to objects rather than desire in the first jhana formula.
Even if we were to accept that interpretation of kamehi referring to objects,
there are lots of ways to be secluded from objects without having to enter vism. redefinition of jhana or jabrama "jhana".
For example, we could put Ajahn Brahm in a sensory deprivation tank, put that tank on a space ship, and send it off to mars. He would be secluded from sense objects, but he doesn't have to also be in a "heavy jhana frozen stupor" to be 'secluded'. He's already secluded from 5 objects, secluded from earth, and he can still think and ponder over his wrong views on jhana while he's in that tank. That would not impact his seclusion from objects.

I've just updated this comprehensive detailed study glossing very sutta, and several non EBT sources including Vism.
Read it, book mark it, and don't bring up the topic again unless you can actually produce something of value that hasn't already been discussed to death and definitively disproven.

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... mehi.html

And a new bit of info, from Chinese Agamas first jhana formula:
In the Chinese EBT Agamas, 'kāmehi" translated as 5kg, agreeing with Pali EBT
Dr. William Chu says:
Five strands of sensuality is almost invariably translated as wuyu (lit. "five desires"). In other words, the Chinese makes it clear that it is the "desire" that is renounced, and not the "sensual stimulation" (i.e. the sensory experience itself, as Sujato would have it) that is renounced.
Thanks a lot Frank for this.
auto
Posts: 2018
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:23 pm ..
If you are chilly then the warmth from a fireplace is agreeable, likeable thus sensual pleasure. We cling to that warmth till we are warm, it is escape from dukkha using sensual pleasure.

Postulate:
Near fireplace when you are warmed not chilly anymore(escaped from dukkha via sensual pleasure) you can't arouse pitisukha originated from being secluded anymore.
BrokenBones
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by BrokenBones »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:35 pm
frank k wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:23 pm ..
If you are chilly then the warmth from a fireplace is agreeable, likeable thus sensual pleasure. We cling to that warmth till we are warm, it is escape from dukkha using sensual pleasure.

Postulate:
Near fireplace when you are warmed not chilly anymore(escaped from dukkha via sensual pleasure) you can't arouse pitisukha originated from being secluded anymore.
I'm not sure I quite follow you. You can't escape dukkha via sensual pleasure. What has this to do with seclusion. It is seclusion from sense desires that leads to jhana not satisfying a sensual desire.
auto
Posts: 2018
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by auto »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:57 am
auto wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:35 pm
frank k wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:23 pm ..
If you are chilly then the warmth from a fireplace is agreeable, likeable thus sensual pleasure. We cling to that warmth till we are warm, it is escape from dukkha using sensual pleasure.

Postulate:
Near fireplace when you are warmed not chilly anymore(escaped from dukkha via sensual pleasure) you can't arouse pitisukha originated from being secluded anymore.
I'm not sure I quite follow you. You can't escape dukkha via sensual pleasure. What has this to do with seclusion. It is seclusion from sense desires that leads to jhana not satisfying a sensual desire.
Most likely you read my poor english writeup wrongly.
If you escape via sensual pleasure then you have escaped dukkha and there is no other way anyway for the uneducated person. You can't escape other means than sensual pleasure if there arises delight on sensual pleasure.
https://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samyutta/salayatana/sn36-006.html wrote: "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.
Sensual pleasure,
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.19/en/sujato wrote: The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure.Yaṃ kho, ānanda, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṃ somanassaṃ—
inspired by Sutta sn 22.89(Khemakasutta) and the likes,
If pain is endured with mindfulness and if there is no evidence of its fading then there still is asmimana regards to the clinging aggregates - As of you are still acting, making actions what will be experienced as pain. These actions could be sensual and you still won't fall back to lower worlds nor stagnate.
I think only arhant knows the escape from dukkha what isn't through sensual pleasure.

Thanks, any critizism welcomed. I have more to say.
auto
Posts: 2018
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.78/en/sujato wrote: ‘We haven’t transcended identity!Avītivattā sakkāyaṃ,
It turns out we’re impermanent!’aniccā kira bho mayaṃ;
So they say when they hear the wordSutvā arahato vākyaṃ,
of the perfected one, free and poised.”vippamuttassa tādino”ti.
Perfected one is accomplished in sila and that is requirement for to do jhana. One needs know khandhas are impermanent before can do jhana.
Perfected one arising in the world denotes that the mendicant is accomplished in ethics, arhant.
https://suttacentral.net/dn9/en/sujato wrote:“It’s when a Realized One arises in the world, perfected, a fully awakened Buddha …“Idha, poṭṭhapāda, tathāgato loke uppajjati arahaṃ, sammāsambuddho … pe …
That’s how a mendicant is accomplished in ethics. …Evaṃ kho, poṭṭhapāda, bhikkhu sīlasampanno hoti … pe …
sila,
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato wrote: Right speech, right action, and right livelihood: these things are included in the category of ethics.Yā cāvuso visākha, sammāvācā yo ca sammākammanto yo ca sammāājīvo ime dhammā sīlakkhandhe saṅgahitā.
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