state of mind and physical elementSpiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:16 pm The question stands. Is it a thing, a state of mind, or something else?
Unconditioned
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Re: Unconditioned
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Re: Unconditioned
States of mind are conditioned, so logically Nibbana must be a "thing", independent of mind.cappuccino wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:21 pmstate of mind and physical elementSpiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:16 pm The question stands. Is it a thing, a state of mind, or something else?
So what kind of "thing"? Not subject to arising and ceasing. And so...?
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Re: Unconditioned
like cooled rice is a state of food
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Unconditioned
Sorry, I don't follow. What does the rice represent here?cappuccino wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:42 pmlike cooled rice is a state of foodSpiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:36 pmStates of mind are conditioned, so logically Nibbana must be a "thing", independent of mind.
So what kind of "thing"? Not subject to arising and ceasing. And so...?
which is not made by conditioning it with heat
Something unconditioned would be unaffected by conditions like temperature, by definition. Hot and cold wouldn't apply.
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Re: Unconditioned
the cooled rice is unconditionedSpiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:50 pm Sorry, I don't follow. What does the rice represent here?
the heat was the conditioning
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Re: Unconditioned
I don't think that works. If the rice is unconditioned, it couldn't be hot or cold, or affected by heat.cappuccino wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:59 pmthe cooled rice is unconditionedSpiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:50 pm Sorry, I don't follow. What does the rice represent here?
the heat was the conditioning
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Re: Unconditioned
the rice exists when unconditioned
most find this difficult to accept
they expected the rice to disappear
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Unconditioned
Well for reasons already given I can't give a definitive answer. All that can be said is that nibbāna exists and that it is sensed at the mind base, and that in the experience of it there is no experience of conditioned dhammas (such as earth, wind, sun, moon etc etc). To say it is unconditioned is to say that it does not arise nor cease, and so it has no condition. It isn't a state of mind. In the suttas the direct experience of final nibbāna is nirodha-samāpatti.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:10 pmSo what is Nibbana, exactly? And what does it mean to say that Nibbana is unconditioned, practically speaking?
Is Nibbana a thing, a state of mind, or something else?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Unconditioned
Buddha sometimes preferred to explain what Nibbāna was not. It was, he told his disciples, a state
where there is neither earth nor water, light nor air; neither infinity or space; it is not infinity of reason but nor is it an absolute void … it is neither this world or another world: it is both sun and moon.
from Buddha by Karen Armstrong
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Re: Unconditioned
OK, but I've listened to Christians making similar statements about "God". It's a doctrinal list, or faith-based rhetoric.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:53 pmWell for reasons already given I can't give a definitive answer. All that can be said is that nibbāna exists and that it is sensed at the mind base, and that in the experience of it there is no experience of conditioned dhammas (such as earth, wind, sun, moon etc etc). To say it is unconditioned is to say that it does not arise nor cease, and so it has no condition. It isn't a state of mind. In the suttas the direct experience of final nibbāna is nirodha-samāpatti.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:10 pmSo what is Nibbana, exactly? And what does it mean to say that Nibbana is unconditioned, practically speaking?
Is Nibbana a thing, a state of mind, or something else?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Unconditioned
Of course I'm basing this on faith since I have not directly experienced nibbāna. Christian Theism asserts that God is a Being and has other attributes. That is quite a different thing.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:13 pmOK, but I've listened to Christians making similar statements about "God". It's a doctrinal list, or faith-based rhetoric.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:53 pmWell for reasons already given I can't give a definitive answer. All that can be said is that nibbāna exists and that it is sensed at the mind base, and that in the experience of it there is no experience of conditioned dhammas (such as earth, wind, sun, moon etc etc). To say it is unconditioned is to say that it does not arise nor cease, and so it has no condition. It isn't a state of mind. In the suttas the direct experience of final nibbāna is nirodha-samāpatti.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:10 pm
So what is Nibbana, exactly? And what does it mean to say that Nibbana is unconditioned, practically speaking?
Is Nibbana a thing, a state of mind, or something else?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Unconditioned
Not really, given that you have no experience of either God or Nibbana.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:16 pmOf course I'm basing this on faith since I have not directly experienced nibbāna. Christian Theism asserts that God is a Being and has other attributes. That is quite a different thing.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:13 pmOK, but I've listened to Christians making similar statements about "God". It's a doctrinal list, or faith-based rhetoric.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:53 pm
Well for reasons already given I can't give a definitive answer. All that can be said is that nibbāna exists and that it is sensed at the mind base, and that in the experience of it there is no experience of conditioned dhammas (such as earth, wind, sun, moon etc etc). To say it is unconditioned is to say that it does not arise nor cease, and so it has no condition. It isn't a state of mind. In the suttas the direct experience of final nibbāna is nirodha-samāpatti.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Unconditioned
Correct, but what I was referring to are the ideas or statements put forward. Christian Theism states that God is an eternal Being endowed with desires, thought, will and emotions. It is this which I was claiming is different to the idea of nibbāna that we find in the suttas.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:21 pmNot really, given that you have no experience of either God or Nibbana.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:16 pmOf course I'm basing this on faith since I have not directly experienced nibbāna. Christian Theism asserts that God is a Being and has other attributes. That is quite a different thing.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:13 pm
OK, but I've listened to Christians making similar statements about "God". It's a doctrinal list, or faith-based rhetoric.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Unconditioned
Sure, they are different ideas about something transcendental.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:24 pmCorrect, but what I was referring to are the ideas or statements put forward. Christian Theism states that God is an eternal Being endowed with desires, thought, will and emotions. It is this which I was claiming is different to the idea of nibbāna that we find in the suttas.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:21 pmNot really, given that you have no experience of either God or Nibbana.
But they're both beliefs, in the absence of direct experience. And even direct experience is inherently subjective.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Unconditioned
I already acknowledged that what I have just been arguing is based on belief (and analysis of the suttas). This will be the case until I directly experience nibbāna for myself. You might reply with, "but you don't know that will ever happen" to which I would also agree. There is, of course, an element of risk with any trust & faith. It's a risk I'm more than willing to take.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:37 pm
Sure, they are different ideas about something transcendental. But they're both beliefs, in the absence of direct experience. And even direct experience is inherently subjective.
The Buddha restricted himself to what can be directly known. Adding an overlay of views on top of that is what is part of the problem. An experience devoid of all conditioned dhammas isn't subjective. Thinking that experience is Atman, Brahman or Allah is. This goes back to the synthetic a priori reasoning that I have been discussing. To give another example, someone like Yājñavalkya might experience the attainment of infinite consciousness and call that Brahman whereas the Buddha simply left it at what was directly experienced, nothing more.And even direct experience is inherently subjective.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”