You wrote:
"if in my past,
there had not been kammic formation (Kammabhi sankharo),
now there would not be for me these five aggregates,
feelings, perceptions etc...I will now so strive that there will not be
any kammic formation of mine producing the aggregates of the
future.
When that is absent, there will be for me no future rebirth, meaning I will so strive that the world presented by the five aggregates will be terminated"
Can you please provide link from where it is taken? I can't find it on SuttaCentral or ATI.
You said: "What shifts to the next life is the force of kamma"
Now this has perplexed a whole lot of people. What do you mean by force of Karma continuing? It is just Karma=Action and what it produces=Vipaka. Such terminological usage like 'force of Karma' has given it separate existence as if it is something "different" from Kamma/Action itself.
To begin our understanding with mundane example, watering a plant is an Act/Kamma and it's result is 'its not withering away'. Now your Act itself has created situation by making available enough water for its sustenance. There is no hidden/transmigrating/metaphysical force that produces the result. Nurturing it for years is an Act/Kamma that has created conducive situation for it to produce fruits.
I have always wondered with this Hinduised concept of Kamma being mystical force that travels like electricity or a soul, handing over devine retribution!
I believe Kamma and all it's results should not enter into our fold of understanding Buddha Dhamma for the Blessed one has categorically declared it one among the Acinteyya.
Then you said: "No that is not what i meant, it is the scent of resulting intention that moves over"
Replace 'scent of resulting intention' with 'force of Kamma' and we have same thing again.
Then you have elaborately dealt with "Kammic Consciousness". All i know of consciousness is six-sense consciousness described the many Suttas i.e. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousnes etc.
I would like to know how 'Kammic Consciousness' is defined by the Blessed One.
You said: " What I meant by residue was the force of kamma generated by the resulting intention of those interactions, combined with inexorable asava, that fuels transmigration from one life to another...."
Can you please explain your understanding of WHAT ACTUALLY TRANSMIGRATES? Is it just Kammic Force or Kammic Consciousness or something altogether different?
With Metta
Jhana
Re: Jhana
Dearest Visigoth: i used the phrase Force of kamma, like someone might use the phrase "Force of Metta" not as a principle of Physics, where it is written Newton's second law states that force is proportional to what is required for an object of constant mass to change its velocity, which is equal to that object's mass multiplied by its acceleration.
I was not thinking of Force like that at all. How does Metta work? can anyone explain? This thread is not about kamma in the sense how kamma comes to pass. Kamma is too copious a subject, even Buddha stayed away from, and kept silent, or said "Don't bother me"
viewtopic.php?p=599796#p599796
When i wrote "kammic consciousness" it was in connection with Underlying tendency. Pl read my post on 1/8/21 on this thread.
Yes Buddha said "All" is the six cognitions.
For the Theravadin it is just that. For the Theravadin who could not get his head around "Underlying Tendency", it is a big muddle. Perhaps because early buddhists constantly wrangled over this, and did not understand "Underlying Tendency", Yogacarins came up with the idea of "Store consciousness" and a few other consciousness.
But I find it easier to attribute our ills to samsaric habitual patterns influencing our current behavior, creating false notions of "I" just to 'Underlying Tendency".
You can read about Vasubandu, and Yogacara elsewhere.
Karmasiddhiprakarana: THE TREATISE ON ACTION BY VASUBHANDHU BY ETIENNE LAMOTTE, English translation by Leo M. Pruden is an excellent read if you need to know how various abhidhammikas speculated on Kamma.
There must be plenty of discussions on kamma on DW, Sutta Central, and Stack exchange, if that is what you are looking for.
My main interest is not in "how Kamma works, but how to stop the further "Origination of Kamma". DO explains the origination. DO and 8-fold path is all one needs to understand.
Bucknell has written an excellent paper on Paticca samuppada, covering all aspects of DO. i will find the link for you if you are interested.
Just the second step of 8fp(right intention) combined with Metta Sutta, strong mindfulness and firm Samadhi (4 buddhist jhanas) is all that has to be done to find freedom from suffering.
With love
I was not thinking of Force like that at all. How does Metta work? can anyone explain? This thread is not about kamma in the sense how kamma comes to pass. Kamma is too copious a subject, even Buddha stayed away from, and kept silent, or said "Don't bother me"
- But Kamma as an ethical principle is in fact fully embedded in dependent origination,
- Sankhāra, the second factor of dependent origination, is intention and therefore the same as kamma in its ethical sense.
viewtopic.php?p=599796#p599796
When i wrote "kammic consciousness" it was in connection with Underlying tendency. Pl read my post on 1/8/21 on this thread.
Yes Buddha said "All" is the six cognitions.
In the puthujjana "All" operates creating more Papanca or more delusion."All" is a reference to how the inflow of sensory world is registered via eye, ear etc in a sequence of Dependent Origination.
- "Underlying Tendency" plays a major role in how "All" expresses itself, in the puthujjana.
For the Theravadin it is just that. For the Theravadin who could not get his head around "Underlying Tendency", it is a big muddle. Perhaps because early buddhists constantly wrangled over this, and did not understand "Underlying Tendency", Yogacarins came up with the idea of "Store consciousness" and a few other consciousness.
But I find it easier to attribute our ills to samsaric habitual patterns influencing our current behavior, creating false notions of "I" just to 'Underlying Tendency".
You can read about Vasubandu, and Yogacara elsewhere.
Karmasiddhiprakarana: THE TREATISE ON ACTION BY VASUBHANDHU BY ETIENNE LAMOTTE, English translation by Leo M. Pruden is an excellent read if you need to know how various abhidhammikas speculated on Kamma.
There must be plenty of discussions on kamma on DW, Sutta Central, and Stack exchange, if that is what you are looking for.
My main interest is not in "how Kamma works, but how to stop the further "Origination of Kamma". DO explains the origination. DO and 8-fold path is all one needs to understand.
Bucknell has written an excellent paper on Paticca samuppada, covering all aspects of DO. i will find the link for you if you are interested.
Just the second step of 8fp(right intention) combined with Metta Sutta, strong mindfulness and firm Samadhi (4 buddhist jhanas) is all that has to be done to find freedom from suffering.
With love
- confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana
it is impossible to get rid of underlying tendency without 4th jhana ...Pulsar wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:04 pm Dearest Visigoth: i used the phrase Force of kamma, like someone might use the phrase "Force of Metta" not as a principle of Physics, where it is written Newton's second law states that force is proportional to what is required for an object of constant mass to change its velocity, which is equal to that object's mass multiplied by its acceleration.
I was not thinking of Force like that at all. How does Metta work? can anyone explain? This thread is not about kamma in the sense how kamma comes to pass. Kamma is too copious a subject, even Buddha stayed away from, and kept silent, or said "Don't bother me"and Buddha very much wanted us to pay attention to it religiously.
- But Kamma as an ethical principle is in fact fully embedded in dependent origination,
As for your query on difference of kamma (Buddhist) vs other Indian religions, I have commented on this elsewhere.
- Sankhāra, the second factor of dependent origination, is intention and therefore the same as kamma in its ethical sense.
viewtopic.php?p=599796#p599796
When i wrote "kammic consciousness" it was in connection with Underlying tendency. Pl read my post on 1/8/21 on this thread.
Yes Buddha said "All" is the six cognitions.In the puthujjana "All" operates creating more Papanca or more delusion."All" is a reference to how the inflow of sensory world is registered via eye, ear etc in a sequence of Dependent Origination.Arahant has killed the Underlying Tendency.
- "Underlying Tendency" plays a major role in how "All" expresses itself, in the puthujjana.
For the Theravadin it is just that. For the Theravadin who could not get his head around "Underlying Tendency", it is a big muddle. Perhaps because early buddhists constantly wrangled over this, and did not understand "Underlying Tendency", Yogacarins came up with the idea of "Store consciousness" and a few other consciousness.
But I find it easier to attribute our ills to samsaric habitual patterns influencing our current behavior, creating false notions of "I" just to 'Underlying Tendency".
You can read about Vasubandu, and Yogacara elsewhere.
Karmasiddhiprakarana: THE TREATISE ON ACTION BY VASUBHANDHU BY ETIENNE LAMOTTE, English translation by Leo M. Pruden is an excellent read if you need to know how various abhidhammikas speculated on Kamma.
There must be plenty of discussions on kamma on DW, Sutta Central, and Stack exchange, if that is what you are looking for.
My main interest is not in "how Kamma works, but how to stop the further "Origination of Kamma". DO explains the origination. DO and 8-fold path is all one needs to understand.
Bucknell has written an excellent paper on Paticca samuppada, covering all aspects of DO. i will find the link for you if you are interested.
Just the second step of 8fp(right intention) combined with Metta Sutta, strong mindfulness and firm Samadhi (4 buddhist jhanas) is all that has to be done to find freedom from suffering.
With love
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Re: Jhana
Dearest Confusedlayman: Can you pl. refrain from adding to the bulk of the thread pointlessly. If you want to address one point in a comment, pl. copy that one point only.
You wrote
With love
PS I juts noticed that Spiny Norman gave you some good advice when you asked "Is it possible to lose Jhana" viewtopic.php?f=43&t=38074
You wrote
Can you pl. explain what you mean by 4th jhana? but don't copy and paste this comment, as you begin to answer. It is impossible that I would forget the last comment I wrote. Thank you for your consideration.it is impossible to get rid of underlying tendency without 4th jhana
With love
PS I juts noticed that Spiny Norman gave you some good advice when you asked "Is it possible to lose Jhana" viewtopic.php?f=43&t=38074
It is fair to say that I could not do any better than that.It might help to "reset" and go back to basics. Allow a more natural development.
It can feel like one step forward and two back at times. And shit happens (Second Truth).
Also, you don't have to get bogged down in the technicalities of jhana, you can just develop some solid samadhi, and see where it leads. You can treat it more like an adventure than a set of "levels" to be achieved. More like an exploration than a set of tasks.
And don't be discouraged by negative or belittling comments about your progress so far.
- confusedlayman
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- Location: Human Realm (as of now)
Re: Jhana
Confusedlayman wrote
You appear to give prominence to arupa samapatthis at times, based on your other threads. How do you combine the Buddhist Jhanas with Arupas. I know some suttas do this. it has been an eternal puzzle to me.
Perhaps you can help me out here, since you are a proponent of those too, and have written much about
those also, elsewhere.
With love
Can you restate it in simpler words, without using "Emergence" or 3 characteristics. What is your primary goal in resorting to Samma samadhi? or 4 buddhist Jhanas?4th jhana according to sutta and emerging from it. I am saying without investigating 3 characteristic using jhana, it is impossible to achieve arhantship
You appear to give prominence to arupa samapatthis at times, based on your other threads. How do you combine the Buddhist Jhanas with Arupas. I know some suttas do this. it has been an eternal puzzle to me.
Perhaps you can help me out here, since you are a proponent of those too, and have written much about
those also, elsewhere.
With love
Re: Jhana
Friday morning thoughts, If a cruelty is targeted at you, don't attribute it to the person who is cruel to you, don't shoot the messenger, they merely serve as conduits to conduct towards you,
Death too is rushing towards you, but if we are neither here nor there, who can death kill?
like copper wires conduct electricity, kamma likewise from the storehouse of its deeds, transmit kammic energies.
Stop making kamma. Withdraw so that when thunderbolt strikes you, you are not there.
The well trained mind finds solace in the void.
In every effort you make to guard your senses, you are working towards jhana, jhana is your everyday life, when you tweak your lifestyle to match buddhist renunciation.
In some moments you will find a state free of suffering, when underlying tendencies do not asail you, you have descended into the Void. Think of that as 4th Jhana.
With love
perhaps. To soften this blow Buddha taught us train in this mannera karmic uprising
to be crushed by the mountains speeding towards you."You are neither here nor there, nor in the in between"
Death too is rushing towards you, but if we are neither here nor there, who can death kill?
like copper wires conduct electricity, kamma likewise from the storehouse of its deeds, transmit kammic energies.
Stop making kamma. Withdraw so that when thunderbolt strikes you, you are not there.
The well trained mind finds solace in the void.
- Void is another word for the 4th Buddhist Jhana.
- Jhana is not an attainment,
- when mindfulness is at its soteriological peak that is 4th jhana.
In every effort you make to guard your senses, you are working towards jhana, jhana is your everyday life, when you tweak your lifestyle to match buddhist renunciation.
In some moments you will find a state free of suffering, when underlying tendencies do not asail you, you have descended into the Void. Think of that as 4th Jhana.
With love
Re: Jhana
Jhana is not an attainment, because it is revealing only what already is there. It is the overcoming of ignorance that makes it so it cannot be seen. Jhana is awakening that requires adept practice, whether sitting, standing, walking, etc. In the 4th jhana, object and subject both disappear. In the sitting practice there are several orientations of the mind to the object. What is important to be said about jhana isn't that there is a "goal" to attain, but that when jhana factors arise, and hindrances fall away, it confirms and verifies right practice. Teachers will of course try to knock the ego out of a pupil that becomes enamored with jhana factors, or Jhana 1,2, 3 etc., because the pupil will naturally be so blown away that they will think the have "arrived" when in fact it's at that moment that they need to practice the most diligently. At first, it is common to struggle with the object, for the mind to wander. The mind is so accustom to agitation out of habit, it is a hard habit to break. Returning to the object, remembering the object, being mindful of the object, with practice becomes more natural. The mind becomes more disciplined, but really, its the practice getting easier too. Eventually the thought directed towards the object becomes sustained thought. This is often overlooked in these discussions. Sustained means, like the terminology in music, the mind rests on the object without breaking away from it, like a note that is struck, but the tone continues to be heard. I would like to put forward that most people can get to this. The idea that jhana is difficult or impossible, that might in some cases be true, but emphasis must be placed on getting strong, sustained mindfulness. My 2 cents worth... : )
Re: Jhana
Visigoth wrote on Jan 19/21
According to BB, suttas were not available in the manner presented in the Pitaka, many a time. There were fragments of Buddha's teaching floating around incomplete,
the compilers organized them into suttas, and sometimes their own struggle at understanding crept into the sutta, I imagine.
Endless repetition in a sutta makes it tedious to read, yet i found the intended meaning in the foot note remarkable. What I copied is found in a very long footnote attached to SN 22.55, the entire footnote is 3-pages long.
It is a revelation of what goes into sutta compilation.
If you are serious about studies, it is well worth purchasing the hard bound copies of Bhikkhu Bodhi. BB did a ton of work in coming up with the footnotes. He writes that his understanding of this sutta is influenced by discussions with other monks. Peter Skilling helped him with Skt and Tibetan versions of the formula.
I tried to find Sujatho's translation. It is not available at Sutta Central.
Here is a meaningful passage from Thanissaro's translation of SN 22.55
of fetters.
But for the uninstructed person it is an issue since s/he engages in a sensuous lifestyle, not withdrawn from the senses, and is bound to be reborn, the aggregates will reappear, in another life. In my simplified words, Samsara continues,
Regarding Kamma,
since you had asked, i've paid a attention to suttas, that mention kamma. There are several.
Here is a sutta that came to my attention https://suttacentral.net/an3.77/en/thanissaro“
My apologies for neglecting this part of your question. It is not found in the main body of Sutta, only in BB footnote to SN 22.55. Passage i selected was the best explanation, for the inspired Utterance of the main sutta"if in my past,
there had not been kammic formation (Kammabhi sankharo),
now there would not be for me these five aggregates,
feelings, perceptions etc...I will now so strive that there will not be
any kammic formation of mine producing the aggregates of the
future.
When that is absent, there will be for me no future rebirth, meaning
I will so strive that the world presented by the five aggregates
will be terminated"
Can you please provide link from where it is taken? I can't find it on SuttaCentral or ATI.
The footnote explains best what cannot be understood by merely reading the sutta. There is too much repetition in the sutta. I attribute the chaos not to Buddha, but to how the abhidhammikes tried to interpret Buddha's words (and some of those got inserted into the suttas, maybe)."It might not be, and it might not be for me;
It will not be, and it will not be for me: resolving thus,
a bhikkhu can cut off the lower fetters''
According to BB, suttas were not available in the manner presented in the Pitaka, many a time. There were fragments of Buddha's teaching floating around incomplete,
the compilers organized them into suttas, and sometimes their own struggle at understanding crept into the sutta, I imagine.
Endless repetition in a sutta makes it tedious to read, yet i found the intended meaning in the foot note remarkable. What I copied is found in a very long footnote attached to SN 22.55, the entire footnote is 3-pages long.
It is a revelation of what goes into sutta compilation.
If you are serious about studies, it is well worth purchasing the hard bound copies of Bhikkhu Bodhi. BB did a ton of work in coming up with the footnotes. He writes that his understanding of this sutta is influenced by discussions with other monks. Peter Skilling helped him with Skt and Tibetan versions of the formula.
I tried to find Sujatho's translation. It is not available at Sutta Central.
Here is a meaningful passage from Thanissaro's translation of SN 22.55
since s/he engages in a lifestyle conducive to cutting offThere is no fear for an instructed disciple of the noble ones [who thinks],
'It should not be, it should not occur to me;
it will not be, it will not occur to me.'
of fetters.
But for the uninstructed person it is an issue since s/he engages in a sensuous lifestyle, not withdrawn from the senses, and is bound to be reborn, the aggregates will reappear, in another life. In my simplified words, Samsara continues,
Regarding Kamma,
since you had asked, i've paid a attention to suttas, that mention kamma. There are several.
Here is a sutta that came to my attention https://suttacentral.net/an3.77/en/thanissaro“
Be wellThus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture.
The intention & aspiration of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a lower, middling or refined property.
Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.
This is how there is becoming.”
Re: Jhana
Dear Visigoth, since you had inquired about Kamma previously this caught my attention. It is from Piya Tan's Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/piyatan?commen ... AyOA%3D%3D
I love this simplified, and 'to the point' version of kamma.
SOUL OR NO SOUL?
The Buddha’s teaching on non-self
But the practice itself is geared towards getting rid of conceit, i.e. the idea of clinging to a self, since soteriologically, clinging to a notion of self, is not conducive to awakening to the fact that, that there really is no self, but a series of processes.
With love
I love this simplified, and 'to the point' version of kamma.
SOUL OR NO SOUL?
The Buddha’s teaching on non-self
or to put it another way, an action that results from intention, since Buddha defined kamma as intention, more precisely.Some teachers assert that
“the Buddha never said that there is no self. He never said that there is a self. The whole question of whether or not the self exists was one he put aside.”
Hence, it is argued, the Buddha starts with no self and then teaches karma, “which makes no sense.” If there’s no self, nobody does the kamma and nobody receives the results, so actions and their results wouldn’t matter, because there’s no one choosing to act, and no one to suffer the results.
But that’s putting the context backwards,
as Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu explains,
“Actually, the Buddha started with the reality of kamma, and then viewed ideas of ‘self’ and ‘not-self’ as types of kamma within that context.
This means that he focused on seeing the way we define our sense of self as an action.”
To give you an example, if one thinks "I must train according to Samma sati, and Samma samadhi, using Metta to begin with" the notion of self helps in that determination.KARMA
Then, the question becomes: When is the act of identifying things as our self wholesome, and when is it not? When is the act of identifying things as not-self wholesome, and when is it not?
When a healthy sense of self is needed to be responsible, self-reliant and heedful of the future, it’s a wholesome view. When the perception of non-self helps us not to identify with harmful desires, it’s a wholesome view.
In other words, both “self” and “non-self” are “skilful means” or strategies for achieving happiness. They should be used and mastered, he adds, as needed for the sake of true happiness, and abandoned when no longer needed. Hence, instead of getting involved in the tangle of trying to define what a self is and whether it exists, the Buddha advises us to see “self” and “non-self” as processes to be mastered as mental tools.
But the practice itself is geared towards getting rid of conceit, i.e. the idea of clinging to a self, since soteriologically, clinging to a notion of self, is not conducive to awakening to the fact that, that there really is no self, but a series of processes.
With love
Re: Jhana
What is the point of 4 buddhist jhanas? Is it not the dismantling of Paticca samuppada?
Consider Son's Flesh and Some salient points from "Sariputta" in SN 35.120.
First Guarding of the sense doors? It does not mean passively thinking, like
"noting body, taking note the body is present". It means something far more dynamic regarding this conscious body.
Second salient point is
In the Sutta on eating SN 12.63 (son's flesh) food is not the only thing that Buddha is interested in.
After rising, while walking back and forth be devoted to wakefulness. The word wakefulness here is spiritually rich. Sariputta (or the author of the sutta) ends the sutta by gently prodding
To feed the components of a self indiscriminately is like
Our feeding on the sensory world is fuelled by our kammic tendency AKA Underlying tendency. Arahant has done away with it.
With love
Consider Son's Flesh and Some salient points from "Sariputta" in SN 35.120.
First Guarding of the sense doors? It does not mean passively thinking, like
"noting body, taking note the body is present". It means something far more dynamic regarding this conscious body.
- One is guarding the sense doors so as not to let in signs and features of a thing, so as not to let a sight or a sound drag in the unskillful as they enter, stuff that hooks the mind, and enslaves it to do Mara's bidding.
Second salient point is
- Nutriment.
If you eat too much? the spirit of awakening, dies, metaphorically. It makes the body and mind heedless."eat just enough to keep the spiritual stuff strengthening"
In the Sutta on eating SN 12.63 (son's flesh) food is not the only thing that Buddha is interested in.
- The teacher uses food to draw our attention to the five cords of sensual pleasure.
implying that the craving for tastes arisen at the tongue door is the same craving that arises at all five sense doors"When the nutriment edible food is fully understood, lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure is fully understood"
Buddha is keen on drawing our attention to other things we feed on, i.e. along with contact we enjoy sensations of 3 kinds, right?."When lust for the five cords ... is fully understood there is no fetter bound by which a noble disciple might come back again to this world"
- Based on sensation, a nourishing intention arises
- sensory addicts
Sutta leads us to Dependent Origination curiously. It writes"Be mindful of what you make contact with"
Name and form is rooted in consciousness and arises along with it."when the nutriment consciousness is fully understood, name-and-form is fully understood. When name and form is fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do"
- A marvel of a sutta, only a SammaSambuddha could wing it, using food to bring us home to Paticca samuppada.
After rising, while walking back and forth be devoted to wakefulness. The word wakefulness here is spiritually rich. Sariputta (or the author of the sutta) ends the sutta by gently prodding
- "Friend you must train like this, guarding the doors of sense faculties, moderate in consumption, devoted to wakefulness"
- For Buddha Kamma was the intention, for the others it was not so.
- spotlighting intention.
To feed the components of a self indiscriminately is like
- gouging one's own son's flesh,
Our feeding on the sensory world is fuelled by our kammic tendency AKA Underlying tendency. Arahant has done away with it.
With love
Re: Jhana
reason for the going of elsewhere from the teachings of Āḷāra Kālāma and Uddaka son of Rāma were that theirs teachings were not complete, there is also nirodha. Uddaka's peak was 'neither perception nor non-perception'.https://suttacentral.net/sn5.6/en/sujato wrote: There are beings in the realm of luminous form,Ye ca rūpūpagā sattā,
and others established in the formless.ye ca arūpaṭṭhāyino;
Not understanding cessation,Nirodhaṃ appajānantā,
they come back in future lives.”āgantāro punabbhavan”ti.
What Buddha(before awakening) found out is,
The teaching may be brahmin origin whatever, anyone can reach those highs regardless of the birth or caste, but these aren't high enough to touch cessation. A question would if it is possible to attain nirodha/cessation without realizing the peak of perception and touch cessation?https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato wrote:Then it occurred to me,Tassa mayhaṃ, bhāradvāja, etadahosi:
‘This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.’
‘nāyaṃ dhammo nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṃvattati, yāvadeva nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti.
Realizing that this teaching was inadequate, I left disappointed.So kho ahaṃ, bhāradvāja, taṃ dhammaṃ analaṅkaritvā tasmā dhammā nibbijja apakkamiṃ.
So did buddha promote this brahman practice? can't be, because no-one else teaches cessation besides himself because no-one haven't reached that far yet, remember that the highest so far were taught by Uddaka son of Rāma.https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN09.html wrote: “Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. As he remains at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, ‘Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear.
What if I were neither to think nor to will?’3 So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases4 and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation.
Buddha said,
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN09.html wrote:“Now what do you think, Poṭṭhapāda? Have you ever before heard of such an alert step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception?”
- pitithefool
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Re: Jhana
I have to add one thing to this, and it's that the Buddha did list desire for jhana as a wholesome desire, and the desire for Nibbana as essential for practicing the path.sunnat wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:24 am The jhanas along with all other steps on the path are anicca. They are attained by practice as a matter of course, not by seeking them. Seeking them with any craving is walking in the wrong direction. They come and pass away. When they come, just observe, don't become attached. Don't be attached in the first place.
- pitithefool
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Re: Jhana
Is it just me, or is there a pretty strong consensus building that the visuddhimagga is likely not the best place to get one's guidance from? I'm wholeheartedly of the opinion that it can be somewhat misleading and that if you're trying to figure out how to meditate, you're better off sticking with the canon and the canon only, specifically MN 118, MN 119 and DN 22 (and MN 121 if you're feeling adventurous). After many years of researching this and practicing meditation, it seems pretty clear that it's not nearly as difficult as the vissuddhimagga makes it out to be.
Re: Jhana
Consciousness, Kamma, Jhana and all that Jazz, Shakespeare, Munch and Praxis too
In other words in these domains,
The naming or designating or denomination is an indicator that kamma has gained entry into picture, in the form of a seamstress. She has snuck in, pushing the needle through, binding the form to the name.
How can we measure that consciousness? The consciousness of Arahant has disappeared from our sight. Trying to do so brings to mind the blind man describing the elephant.
It is a bit silly.
It is not one or two suttas that this writing is based on but all the suttas that make sense, that speaks to me of how Buddha taught. It is not based on the teachings of compilers who just did not get the Buddha.
A friend wrote on DW, referring to the sheaves of reed simile in SĀ 288 Vs SN 12.67
If there is no forming (painting, sculpting), samsaric consciousness collapses. Form, and naming of the form, and consciousness need the support of all. In the Agama version of Reed simile there are 3 reeds, supporting each other.
Have you seen the work of Praxiteles? Consciousness is a better sculptor at sculpting faces with eyes, ears and noses, etc, nay it is far more efficient. Don't forget that
Where consciousness is samsarically active, with the aid of kamma, stuff representative of life happens, meaning
No one takes a holiday in the unguarded mind.
Outflow of metta to all!
Bhikkhus have you seen a masterpiece of painting?
"Yes Lord"
these are the sentiments of SN 12.64. What does this mean for one who wants to do away with suffering or its origination, as in the palm stump simile?"That masterpiece of art is designed by the mind" "Indeed bhikkhus, the mind is even more artistic than the masterpiece"
- The "Painter" is about the artistry of mind or its skillfulness,
- It is only in the 4th foundation of mindfulness or in the 4th jhana, that cessation happens,
In other words in these domains,
- consciousness or the mind stops painting or sculpting.
The naming or designating or denomination is an indicator that kamma has gained entry into picture, in the form of a seamstress. She has snuck in, pushing the needle through, binding the form to the name.
- Denomination is the one thing that has everything under control
(sutta nipata 654).By kamma the world moves, by kamma men live, and by kamma are all beings bound, As by its pin the rolling chariot of wheel
Beings are originated by kamma, kamma is its relative, are sheltered by it, or ruined by it.
- In worldly phenomena, consciousness is the chief, consciousness is the principal, consciousness is the forerunner.
- In transcendental phenomena, however, understanding is the chief, understanding is the principal, understanding is the forerunner.
How can we measure that consciousness? The consciousness of Arahant has disappeared from our sight. Trying to do so brings to mind the blind man describing the elephant.
It is a bit silly.
It is not one or two suttas that this writing is based on but all the suttas that make sense, that speaks to me of how Buddha taught. It is not based on the teachings of compilers who just did not get the Buddha.
A friend wrote on DW, referring to the sheaves of reed simile in SĀ 288 Vs SN 12.67
But why would it surprise anyone? This is exactly what happens in 4th jhana? Samsaric consciousness or underlying tendency is abolished. Curiously in the agama version of the sutta on Reed simile, there are three reeds not two, as in SN 12.67. A glitch in the memory of a compiler? I don't think so, the Agama version makes more sense.the Sarvastivadin version is difficult because it implies that there are no formless existences because, when you take away form, mind and name plummet in that version.
If there is no forming (painting, sculpting), samsaric consciousness collapses. Form, and naming of the form, and consciousness need the support of all. In the Agama version of Reed simile there are 3 reeds, supporting each other.
Have you seen the work of Praxiteles? Consciousness is a better sculptor at sculpting faces with eyes, ears and noses, etc, nay it is far more efficient. Don't forget that
- consciousness is a magic trick
Where consciousness is samsarically active, with the aid of kamma, stuff representative of life happens, meaning
- people walk, people talk, people make love and people make war, people fall in love with ice cream.
No one takes a holiday in the unguarded mind.
Outflow of metta to all!
Last edited by Pulsar on Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.