DooDoot wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:27 am
The suttas say the first jhana only has five factors, which does not include the breathing.
What about all the suttas that describe the first jhana as having 4 factors?
SN 36.11 appears to say (after the predominant rapture & happiness objects cease), there is no awareness of breathing in the 4th jhana.
If we take this to mean something like pranayama, agin this makes sense as the breath does indeed fall still. I'm not convinced that this description means that we are no longer aware of the breath but any motion in it does fall still or imperceptible.
Therefore, the impression is the Anapanasati Sutta described a fruition that is not yet on the level of jhana.
How can this be when the sutta above directly references the in and out breathing in reference to the fourth jhana? I don't find evidence in the canon that anapanasati cannot be used as an object to develop jhana. Specifically in MN118, it's stated as fulfilling the seven factors of enlightenment, one of which is samadhi.
Some monks and meditators who generally reject the commentaries & Visuddhimagga do not reject the commentary teaching of the three levels of concentration, namely, preparatory, neighbourhood & attainment concentration.
I do reject the distinction between the different concentrations, namely because the suttas do not corroborate such a distinction. In SN 36.11, it appears that the distinction between no jhana and first jhana is that speech has ceased. None of the stock four or five factored jhana descriptions include anything like access concentration either.
The commentary doctrine of three levels of concentration supports the view Anapanasati is not yet jhana.
This is my point exactly. If the commentaries don't support the view that anapana can be used to develop jhana, but the suttas and even the VSM do, then where does that leave us?
The SN suttas that refer to the Buddha practising Anapanasati use the term "concentration from Anapanasati", as though Anapanasati was a preliminary practise for the Buddha's jhana concentration.
Can you provide a reference for this? If the term samadhi is used for anapana, shouldn't we consider it to be right concentration? I.e. the four jhanas? Especially given that MN 118 lists anapana as fulfilling the seven factors for enlightenment?
In summary, monks such as Ajahn Buddhadasa and Brahm said either directly or indirectly there is no awareness of breathing in jhana.
I agree with this up to where the suttas support the view, which is that in the fourth jhana, the in and out breath falls totally still