Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SteRo
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by SteRo »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:13 am in summary, there are 4 dharma seals rather than 3
DooDoot's dhamma wants to improve Buddha dhamma? :lol:
DooDoot wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:13 am nibbana is permanent true happiness
:roll:
DooDoot wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:13 am don't let Coëmgenu tell u otherwise :smile:
Coëmgenu is expressing from the level of namdrol and others from dharma wheel. DooDoot is expressing from a level of 'I know better than the Buddha.'


Serious practitioners will recognize the 'DooDoot vs Coëmgenu debates' as that what it is.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by befriend »

The second characteristics is also unsatisfying how can we find permanent happiness in impermanent things. There would be no need to renounce anything if everything was ultamitely satisfying. When the mind sees Dukkha it turns away from phenomena this is nibbida or disenchantment with all compounded things leading the mind to renounce clinging to anything. His teachings on this don't resonate with my experience or traditional Buddhism.
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SteRo
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by SteRo »

befriend wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:59 pm The second characteristics is also unsatisfying how can we find permanent happiness in impermanent things.
Correct. How can there be permanent happiness when experience is subject to momentariness?
befriend wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:59 pm There would be no need to renounce anything if everything was ultamitely satisfying.
True. "Ultimately satisfying" necessarily meaning "permanently satisfying". But experience is subject to momentariness!
befriend wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:59 pm When the mind sees Dukkha it turns away from phenomena this is nibbida or disenchantment with all compounded things leading the mind to renounce clinging to anything.
Perfect conceptual insight. But what about perfect experiential insight?
befriend wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:59 pm His teachings on this don't resonate with my experience or traditional Buddhism.
Your experience is more important than "traditional Buddhism".
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by DooDoot »

SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:04 pm DooDoot's dhamma wants to improve Buddha dhamma?
wrong forum SteRo. Mahayana is not Buddha-Dhamma.
SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:04 pm
DooDoot wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:13 am nibbana is permanent true happiness
:roll:
Pali suttas say the above. Wrong forum SteRo. Nagarjuna did not teach as the Buddha did. :smile:
203. Hunger is the worst disease, conditioned things the worst suffering. Knowing this as it really is, the wise realize Nibbana, the highest bliss.

204. Health is the most precious gain and contentment the greatest wealth. A trustworthy person is the best kinsman :mrgreen: , Nibbana the highest bliss.

Dhammapada
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the taintless and the path leading to the taintless. Listen to that….

“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the truth and the path leading to the truth…. I will teach you the far shore … the subtle … the very difficult to see … the unaging … … the stable … the undisintegrating … the unmanifest … the unproliferated … the peaceful … the deathless … the sublime … the auspicious … … the secure …. the destruction of craving … the wonderful … the amazing … the unailing … the unailing state … Nibbāna … the unafflicted … dispassion … … purity … freedom … the unadhesive … the island … the shelter … the asylum … the refuge … …”

https://suttacentral.net/sn43.14-43/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SteRo
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by SteRo »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:39 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:04 pm DooDoot's dhamma wants to improve Buddha dhamma?
wrong forum SteRo. Mahayana is not Buddha-Dhamma.
SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:04 pm
DooDoot wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:13 am nibbana is permanent true happiness
:roll:
Pali suttas say the above. Wrong forum SteRo. Nagarjuna did not teach as the Buddha did. :smile:
203. Hunger is the worst disease, conditioned things the worst suffering. Knowing this as it really is, the wise realize Nibbana, the highest bliss.

204. Health is the most precious gain and contentment the greatest wealth. A trustworthy person is the best kinsman :mrgreen: , Nibbana the highest bliss.

Dhammapada
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the taintless and the path leading to the taintless. Listen to that….

“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the truth and the path leading to the truth…. I will teach you the far shore … the subtle … the very difficult to see … the unaging … … the stable … the undisintegrating … the unmanifest … the unproliferated … the peaceful … the deathless … the sublime … the auspicious … … the secure …. the destruction of craving … the wonderful … the amazing … the unailing … the unailing state … Nibbāna … the unafflicted … dispassion … … purity … freedom … the unadhesive … the island … the shelter … the asylum … the refuge … …”

https://suttacentral.net/sn43.14-43/en/bodhi
Of course you have to misunderstand ... but I am not involved.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
johnsmitty
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by johnsmitty »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:13 am
in summary, there are 4 dharma seals rather than 3
The 4 noble truths are the real dharma seals.

The deniers of reincarnation deny 1 so are non-dharmic; the deniers of an exit from reincarnation deny 3-4 so are non-dharmic. The changers of 2 who change the cause of suffering/reincarnation from lust to believing you exist are in denial of the real 2 and thus are non-dharmic. These are the real dharma seals.
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by DooDoot »

johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:38 am The deniers of reincarnation deny 1 so are non-dharmic; The 4 noble truths are the real dharma seals.
wrong view about Noble Right View ... refer to MN 117

realisers of 4NTs realise: "all that is subject to arising is subject to cessation". refer to SN 56.11

realisers of 4NTs don't realise: "all that is subject to cessation is subject to re-arising"

:focus:
SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:16 pm Of course you have to misunderstand ... but I am not involved.
wrong forum; wrong sect; wrong language. this forum is in English & Pali language rather than Gibberish :focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by johnsmitty »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:42 am
johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:38 am The deniers of reincarnation deny 1 so are non-dharmic;
wrong view about Noble Right View ... :focus:
Noble truth 1 is clearly that reincarnation is suffering. And this fact that by suffering he means reincarnation is found all over. Like in the Dhammapada verse about trying to find the house builder where he says "truly being born over and over is suffering." People who have a problem with dukkha being translated suffeing are just reincarnation deniers (uchedavadins) who can't figure out how life can be suffering since to them you live once and then cease to exist; but the reason is the repetition; Buddha believed we are suffering because he believed we reincarnate to do it over again, and truly having to do it over and over is suffering, especially since all you learned is lost and you truly start over since you lose your memory. Thus suffering is the right translation and unsatisfactoriness is for silly uchedavadins.

But sasatavadins also have trouble seeing suffering because they think reincarnation is unescapable and the solution is merely shrugging and giving up by saying "I'm not real so the fact that I will reincarnate forever with no possibility of exiting the cycle isn't a big deal, so I'll just say 'Oh well no big deal, I'm not real and thus my suffering is not real, no need for an exit, I'll just give up and throw up my hands in defeat and make peace with my everlasting reincarnating fate.'" Thus TNH teaches.

And both groups deny the 4 noble truths.
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by DooDoot »

johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:49 am Noble truth 1 is clearly that reincarnation is suffering.
while the above sounds totally wrong & appears unrelated to sutta but is only your personal interpretation; you should start a new topic to discuss this. if "jati" or "ponobhavika" meant "reincarnation" then all translators would translate it as "reincarnation"
realisers of 4NTs realise: "all that is subject to arising is subject to cessation". refer to SN 56.11

realisers of 4NTs don't realise: "all that is subject to cessation is subject to re-arising"
uchedavadins believe a 'self' ends at "death". refer to DN 1. it seems, again, you misinterpret sutta :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by johnsmitty »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:51 am
johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:49 am Noble truth 1 is clearly that reincarnation is suffering.
while the above sounds totally wrong & appears unrelated to sutta but is only your personal interpretation; you should start a new topic to discuss this. if "jati" or "ponobhavika" meant "reincarnation" then all translators would translate it as "reincarnation"
realisers of 4NTs realise: "all that is subject to arising is subject to cessation". refer to SN 56.11

realisers of 4NTs don't realise: "all that is subject to cessation is subject to re-arising"
uchedavadins believe a 'self' ends at "death". refer to DN 1. it seems, again, you misinterpret sutta :smile:
You're just creating a loophole that you can deny reincarnation as long as you deny a self too, but you're wrong. You deny the 4 noble truths, as does TNH.
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by DooDoot »

johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:01 am You're just creating a loophole that you can deny reincarnation as long as you deny a self too, but you're wrong. You deny the 4 noble truths, as does TNH.
the above appears to have an idiosyncratic view about the 4NTs, which appear not about reincarnation

MN 117 says clearly an views about "reincarnation" are not "Noble"

try reading the suttas :reading: :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by johnsmitty »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:04 am
johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:01 am You're just creating a loophole that you can deny reincarnation as long as you deny a self too, but you're wrong. You deny the 4 noble truths, as does TNH.
the above appears to have an idiosyncratic view about the 4NTs, which appear not about reincarnation

MN 117 says clearly an views about "reincarnation" are not "Noble"

try reading the suttas :reading: :thanks:
Those who deny the 4 noble truths make everything about no-self which is not one of them, and use it to obliterate the 4 noble truths, and to hide what they are doing. You can't even understand the 4 noble truths because you brought the heresy of no self from the pits of hell and replaced the 4 noble truths with that demon feces.
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by DooDoot »

johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:06 am Those who deny the 4 noble truths ...
we should agree to disagree. no point continuing debating. obviously our respective views are self-evident

please refer to the forum rules about ceasing debate when requested by another

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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JamesNhatHahn
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

Post by JamesNhatHahn »

johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:49 am
DooDoot wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:42 am
johnsmitty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:38 am The deniers of reincarnation deny 1 so are non-dharmic;
wrong view about Noble Right View ... :focus:
Noble truth 1 is clearly that reincarnation is suffering. And this fact that by suffering he means reincarnation is found all over. Like in the Dhammapada verse about trying to find the house builder where he says "truly being born over and over is suffering." People who have a problem with dukkha being translated suffeing are just reincarnation deniers (uchedavadins) who can't figure out how life can be suffering since to them you live once and then cease to exist; but the reason is the repetition; Buddha believed we are suffering because he believed we reincarnate to do it over again, and truly having to do it over and over is suffering, especially since all you learned is lost and you truly start over since you lose your memory. Thus suffering is the right translation and unsatisfactoriness is for silly uchedavadins.

But sasatavadins also have trouble seeing suffering because they think reincarnation is unescapable and the solution is merely shrugging and giving up by saying "I'm not real so the fact that I will reincarnate forever with no possibility of exiting the cycle isn't a big deal, so I'll just say 'Oh well no big deal, I'm not real and thus my suffering is not real, no need for an exit, I'll just give up and throw up my hands in defeat and make peace with my everlasting reincarnating fate.'" Thus TNH teaches.

And both groups deny the 4 noble truths.
It's common knowledge in Buddhism that the word "suffering" does not quite capture the exact meaning of Dukkha.
I don't like 'suffering'. I prefer unsatisfactory.
I would generally agree reincarnation is suffering. Because the Buddha said birth is suffering.
But people who have a problem with Dukkha being translated as suffering are reincarnation deniers?? I don't know where you get that idea from?
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Re: Thich Nhat Hahn's understanding of 'The Three Dharma Seals'

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JamesNhatHahn wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:25 am It's common knowledge in Buddhism that the word "suffering" does not quite capture the exact meaning of Dukkha.
I don't like 'suffering'. I prefer unsatisfactory.
Dukkha does not have one meaning in the suttas. There are three main meanings per context:

1. dukkha vedana = unpleasant feelings

2. dukkha lakkhaṇa = unsatisfactoriness (of impermanent things), per the three characteristics

3. upadana dukkha = suffering/torment of attachment, per the 1st noble truth
JamesNhatHahn wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:25 amI would generally agree reincarnation is suffering. Because the Buddha said birth is suffering.
Birth (jati) does not appear to mean reincarnation. Even the commentary the Vissudhimagga says the word "birth" has many meanings, included "what is formed"; "clan"; etc
JamesNhatHahn wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:25 amBut people who have a problem with Dukkha being translated as suffering are reincarnation deniers?? I don't know where you get that idea from?
His idea is about "birth". He believes "jati" means "reincarnation" instead of merely "bringing forth", "identity", etc. Obviously the word "jati/jato" does not mean "reincarnation" below:
“In that case, Aṅgulimāla, go to that woman and say this:

“Tena hi tvaṃ, aṅgulimāla, yena sā itthī tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā taṃ itthiṃ evaṃ vadehi:

15.6‘Ever since I was born in the noble birth, sister, I don’t recall having intentionally taken the life of a living creature. By this truth, may both you and your baby be safe.’”

‘yatohaṃ, bhagini, ariyāya jātiyā jāto, nābhijānāmi sañcicca pāṇaṃ jīvitā voropetā, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassā’”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn86/en/sujato#15.5
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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