How nice to be “friended.” One point though: the sheaves of wheat parallel is in SĀ 288 and it is to the reed simile in the Naḷakalāpīsutta at SN 12.67.Pulsar wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:03 pmA friend wrote on DW, referring to DN 15,But why would it surprise anyone? This is exactly what happens in 4th jhana? Samsaric consciousness or underlying tendency is abolished. Curiously in the agama version of the sutta on Reed simile, there are three reeds not two. A glitch in the memory of a compiler? The Agama version makes more sense.the Sarvastivadin version is difficult because it implies that there are no formless existences because, when you take away form, mind and name plummet in that version.
Jhana
Re: Jhana
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Jhana
My dear best friend Coëmgenu: You wrote
With love
That was a life saver, I made the corrections. I had too many thoughts on my mind. I was studying the two versions of DN 15, around the same time. The agama version of DN 15 was a lot clearer than the Pali version. It is a blessing to be around friends like you. All the things that were muddled get gradually unmuddled.How nice to be “friended.” One point though: the sheaves of wheat parallel is in SĀ 288 and it is to the reed simile in the Naḷakalāpīsutta at SN 12.67.
With love
Re: Jhana
if you mean wisdom and consciousness then,
they can't be dissected but there is difference,https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote:“Wisdom and consciousness—“Yā cāvuso, paññā yañca viññāṇaṃ—
these things are mixed, not separate.ime dhammā saṃsaṭṭhā, no visaṃsaṭṭhā.
And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them.Na ca labbhā imesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ.
For you understand what you cognize, and you cognize what you understand.Yaṃ hāvuso, pajānāti taṃ vijānāti, yaṃ vijānāti taṃ pajānāti.
That’s why these things are mixed, not separate.Tasmā ime dhammā saṃsaṭṭhā, no visaṃsaṭṭhā.
And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them.”Na ca labbhā imesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti.
Arhant is sentient being albeit the best one in existence. Arhant doesn't have transcendental consciousness. Read above, consciousness is to be understood not transcended.https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote:“Wisdom and consciousness—“Yā cāvuso, paññā yañca viññāṇaṃ—
what is the difference between these things that are mixed, not separate?”imesaṃ dhammānaṃ saṃsaṭṭhānaṃ no visaṃsaṭṭhānaṃ kiṃ nānākaraṇan”ti?
“Yā cāvuso, paññā yañca viññāṇaṃ—“The difference between these things is that wisdom should be developed, while consciousness should be completely understood.”imesaṃ dhammānaṃ saṃsaṭṭhānaṃ no visaṃsaṭṭhānaṃ paññā bhāvetabbā, viññāṇaṃ pariññeyyaṃ.Idaṃ nesaṃ nānākaraṇan”ti.
So go back to drawing board. And if you not like MN 43, there is SN equivalent.Pulsar wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:03 pm The Arahant has done away with worldly consciousness, s/he resides in the Right knowledge and is thus Rightly liberated, MN 117, operates on the principle of immeasurable.
How can we measure that consciousness? The consciousness of Arahant has disappeared from our sight. Trying to do so brings to mind the blind man describing the elephant.
It is a bit silly.
Re: Jhana
Dearest Coëmgenu: I appreciate your ability to point out incongruities in suttas using parallels,
such as you did with SĀ 288 and Naḷakalāpīsutta at SN 12.67. It enables me to revisit DO with a more fitting understanding. Come to think of it DN 15 is packed with some incongruities that are not found in some agama versions.
Just a quick query...are you aware of any incongruity in SN 14.9 which is titled "Diversity of contacts".
BB in his footnotes to this sutta writes under FN 230 "the discrete sequence beginning with contact perception leads to some strange incongruities, which becomes even more bizarre....."
I find something seriously curious embedded in this footnote...
Sometimes it is the occasional footnote that reveals the truth of the text of a sutta, than the text of the sutta itself. Explorations into the suttas are fascinating. In a different footnote to SN 22.81 BB writes
Perhaps this is why a famous scholar wrote, without meditation, Dhamma cannot be deciphered.
Anyways I was wondering whether you can help me out here. Can you pl. check it out when you have the time?
Are you aware of an agama parallel to SN 14.9? Will it shed some light?
With love and great appreciation of your contributions to the Forum.
such as you did with SĀ 288 and Naḷakalāpīsutta at SN 12.67. It enables me to revisit DO with a more fitting understanding. Come to think of it DN 15 is packed with some incongruities that are not found in some agama versions.
Just a quick query...are you aware of any incongruity in SN 14.9 which is titled "Diversity of contacts".
BB in his footnotes to this sutta writes under FN 230 "the discrete sequence beginning with contact perception leads to some strange incongruities, which becomes even more bizarre....."
I find something seriously curious embedded in this footnote...
Sometimes it is the occasional footnote that reveals the truth of the text of a sutta, than the text of the sutta itself. Explorations into the suttas are fascinating. In a different footnote to SN 22.81 BB writes
I can just imagine why there is horrendous confusion regarding what ought to be straightforward."The two versions differ only with respect to two verb forms, they are sometimes confounded in the various recensions,
Perhaps this is why a famous scholar wrote, without meditation, Dhamma cannot be deciphered.
Anyways I was wondering whether you can help me out here. Can you pl. check it out when you have the time?
Are you aware of an agama parallel to SN 14.9? Will it shed some light?
With love and great appreciation of your contributions to the Forum.
Re: Jhana
I guess I would need to know more about what Venerable Bodhi meant when he said "leads to some strange incongruities." What was the specific incongruity Ven Bodhi pointed out? I agree that "contact" is placed irregularly, but what else does he point out?
Pali version
Agama Sutra No. 455
Pali version
- 1. elements dhātu
2. perceptions saññā
3. intentions saṅkappa
4. contacts phassa
5. feelings vedanā
6. desires chanda
7. passions pariḷāha
8. searches pariyesanā
9. gains lābha
- 1. elements 界
2. contact 觸
3. feelings 受
4. perceptions 想 (saññā)
5. intention 欲 (cetanā/saṅkappa)
6. attention 覺 (manasikāra)
7. fevers/passions 熱
8. searches 求
Agama Sutra No. 455
- 1. elements 界
2. contact 觸
3. perceptions 想
4. intention 欲
5. attention 覺
6. fevers/passions 熱
7. searches 求
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Jhana
This reads better, although it looks like the suttas are trying to follow nama but in nama contact comes after vedana, sanna and intentions.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Jhana
Contact is differently-placed in the Sarvāstivādin version, but both the Pāli and Chinese are actually arguably placing contact irregularly here, not just the Pāli. Consider, IMO the placement is only irregular if we conceive of DO as in a particular shape that necessarily “starts with” ignorance and “ends with” age-and-death, that nāmarūpa “always precedes” contact and that contact will never in turn be a condition for nāmarūpa or any other link that allegedly “precedes” it. I call this “pinball DO,” because it presumes that the links of DO are like pinballs that require a transfer of motion from another pinball to get them “moving.”
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Jhana
Obviously the above is misunderstood, as demonstrated in the recent failed Nagarjuna thread. I posted the above (or similar from SN 14.12) in the failed Nagarjuna thread but it was ignored.
Allow me to repeat:
1. ignorance link = asava = elements
2. sankhara link = 3 x MN 44 sankhara = includes perception (citta sankhara)
3. namarupa = includes intention
4. contact = contact
5. feeling = feeling
6. desire = craving
7. passions = delight = attachment
8. searches = becoming
9. gains = lābha = jati = SN 12.2 āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho = acquisition of sense objects
The above is also OK but it is a simpler briefer version starting at contact, similar to in DN 22.
Because one follows the idol Nagarjuna and because one has no meditation insight, one does not comprehend the internal perceptions arising before contact and distinguishes them from the perceptions arising after contact.
In the full version of D.O. perception arises 3 times, at sankkhara, at nama-rupa and at/with feeling.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Jhana
Contact is however within nāmarūpa. I'm beginning to suspect that the contact of nāmarūpa refers to the 2 kinds of contact outlined in DN 15, whilst the contact that follows the saḷāyatana depends upon designation & resistant contact, itself being the outcome of attention as per MN 28:Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:22 pmContact is differently-placed in the Sarvāstivādin version, but both the Pāli and Chinese are actually arguably placing contact irregularly here, not just the Pāli. Consider, IMO the placement is only irregular if we conceive of DO as in a particular shape that necessarily “starts with” ignorance and “ends with” age-and-death, that nāmarūpa “always precedes” contact and that contact will never in turn be a condition for nāmarūpa or any other link that allegedly “precedes” it. I call this “pinball DO,” because it presumes that the links of DO are like pinballs that require a transfer of motion from another pinball to get them “moving.”
"Samannāhāra, (saṃ+anu+āhāra) concentration, bringing together M. I, 190 sq.; DA. I, 123; Miln. 189. (Page 683)"Ajjhattikañceva, āvuso, cakkhuṃ aparibhinnaṃ hoti bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, no ca tajjo samannāhāro hoti, neva tāva tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti.
“If, friends, internally the eye is intact but no external forms come into its range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness.
Yato ca kho, āvuso, ajjhattikañceva cakkhuṃ aparibhinnaṃ hoti, bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, tajjo ca samannāhāro hoti. Evaṃ tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti.
If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness.
A form coming into range of vision is not enough for contact, and so visual awareness. There has to be intention & attention towards it.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Jhana
Please stop introducing silly non-sequiturs into actual meaningful discussion.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Jhana
The above suspicions appear incorrect because ignorance & sankhara are not included in the dodgy DN 15.
It appears contact is within nāmarūpa because it is an internal contact with ignorance & sankhara.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Jhana
They don't have to be. Classical Buddhist hermeneutics rightly state that when one part of dependent origination is taught the other parts are implied.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Jhana
The above may be true but DN 15 cannot be relied on to explain why contact is within nama-rupa because DN 15 only has 9 links.
The full version is as follows:
For example, the sankhara thought arises: "I feel like chocolate". This is an internal contact at nama-rupa.
Then nama-rupa, under the influence of ignorance (instead of eradicating that unwholesome thought), makes the intentional decision: "Yes, lets find chocolate".
Then contact is made externally with chocolate when searching for chocolate.
Thus there are two contacts in a cycle: internal contact of a sankhara at nama-rupa and external contact with an external object.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Jhana
We have had this discussion 10000 times. I don't think we need to discuss it for all time. We agree on very little. No need to keep beating the dead horse.DooDoot wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:26 pmThe above may be true but DN 15 cannot be relied on to explain why contact is within nama-rupa.
The full version is as follows:
For example, the sankhara thought arises: "I feel like chocolate". This is an internal contact.
Then nama-rupa, under the influence of ignorance (instead of eradicating that unwholesome thought), makes the intentional decision: "Yes, lets find chocolate".
Then contact is made externally with chocolate when searching for chocolate.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Jhana
Obviously, the above shows a misunderstanding of the mind, showing an inability to control the mind and its impulses.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati